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Subject: I'm not offended by the female characters, but it's a missed opportunity. rss

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Michael D. Kelley
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A related complaint was raised in another thread Another disappointing Pirate themed game, but I didn't want to continue hijacking that thread's original point, and I have a different criticism than what was brought up there.

So first, just to anticipate objections and criticisms of this post, let me establish a few facts.

I don't mind artwork depicting big-breasted women. I'm not saying it's my favorite style of illustration, but it has its place and great works of art have been created using this style.

I don't mind women being depicted as sexual beings, or as enjoying sex. I am often irritated by the trend in the USA of hating perfectly natural sex and nudity, while glorifying violence and murder. Both women and men should feel comfortable being sexual and appearing "sexy".

What I do mind is women being depicted as tools of men, with no mind or agency of their own. These characters have their place, of course, as do similarly characterized men. But if that is the only type of female character a piece of art has to offer, well, that could be problematic.

As an example of all of this, I am a big fan of both the Vampirella and Red Sonja comic lines. Yes, each of them is very sexual, and depicted with ridiculously proportioned bodies, but they are strong, in-control characters, often defeating and embarrassing weak men who take them for granted.

So, I'm not writing this because I think that the design for "Miss Mags" (the only female in the base game) or the stretch goal females are offensive or "wrong".

I also don't think that every game needs to have equal male and female characters, or one or more representatives of every major ethnic group. Clearly, for thematic/setting reasons, some games simply wouldn't have as many women, or as many African Americans, or what have you. It's silly to insist in gender and racial equity in every game.

And designers and artists have the right to make their characters look however they want. Freedom of speech and the free market being what they are, you can make whatever the heck you want, and the masses are free to shun and protest your product as much as they like.

Both of these points being made, I think the character designs revealed so far for Rum & Bones are a missed opportunity, and could be potentially losing the game a larger audience base. This is going to focus on the depiction of women, and the lack of clearly non-white characters. I realize that the zombies could have been pretty much any race, and I'll concede that Slevin might be non-white, and that the most recent female characters are Asian, so this isn't a blanket criticism.

The problem as I see it comes from two concepts: Player preference and archetype variety. Let's discuss each briefly.

Player Preference
Many players have a preference for the avatar they want to represent them. I am a white male, but when given the choice I gravitate toward white and Asian female characters in games. Blame it on obsessive watching of Miyazaki films and Buffy the Vampire Slayer episodes as a teenager. My wife (half Puerto Rican) always goes for a strong female character if one is available, of any race. My friend Patrick, a bisexual African American, always goes for a hot black character.

I gravitate towards a type different than myself. But many players (I won't say a majority... I don't know) gravitate towards characters like themselves.

This is where my first problem enters in a game like Rum & Bones. My wife always wants to play a female character. She has very little choice in this game. Patrick wouldn't have a single character that fits his preferred type. Would they refuse to play the game? Of course not. But they would certainly comment on the lack of variety. They might not enjoy playing their character as much.

And with so many games giving alternate male/female characters these days, or just having greater racial and/or gender variety, why not do it? It's not like thematically there weren't black pirates. But so far out of 21 human characters (if I counted correctly), we have 15 men, 6 women, 16 clearly white characters, 3 Asian characters, and 2 characters who might, possibly, be latino (Slevin and Alex).

Again, there isn't a requirement that the game have any diversity in it. But why not appeal to more groups, and have more variety in your characters?

Archetype Variety
My other complaint (for this and many similar games, some from CMON), is that there is a great variety in archetypes for male characters, and white characters, but little to no variety in female/non-white characters.

When I say archetypes, I mean general character types that can be quickly identified. "Big guy with sword", "sneaky ninja", "buxom waitress", "fat brawler"... that kind of thing.

Many games will have interesting archetypes REGARDLESS of gender and race. For an example, let's look at another CMON game that I love, Arcadia Quest.

In the base heroes you have: Diva (armored knight with awesome defense), Scarlet (sneaky thief), and Maya (scantily clad sorceress). Yes, 2 of the 3 have large amounts of cleavage, but as stated at the beginning this doesn't bother me. You have 3 cool character types, HUGELY different from one another, irrespective of their gender.

Compare this to the Rum & Bones main set, not counting exclusives and stretch goals. If I buy the game from a brick & mortar store, what archetypes are in the game? I have an imposing leader (Captain Pale), a dashing swordsman (Mad Ivan), a drunken gun specialist (Blackout Bart), a grizzled giant brawler (Stumper Pete), and... a hot chick. Her character is primarily defined by her gender, and her sexy appearance.

This is largely a consequence of her being the only female character in the entire base game. But even adding in extras, the two Wellsport Brotherhood characters don't look that much more interesting... sexy waitress and hunter/tight leather girl? And then you have 3 Asian characters, whose archetypes are primarily defined by being ASIAN, and sexy, and female, and not much else. Basically the same problem.

Look at the male characters in the extras. You have characters of multiple sizes, multiple ages, greater variety in general. Are we not allowed to have an overweight woman, or an older leading female? Would prospective buyers, titillated by the large-breasted youngsters on display (and hey, I think they're sexy too!) suddenly run away if every female didn't fit the same body type and age?

In conclusion, all of this is purely my personal preference. Although I think more games should strive to offer more variety in character design (and many are), I would not automatically NOT buy a game for having little variety in characters.

And by the way, just to put my money where my mouth is, my first game design (KickStarting next year) does have equal male and female characters, with a variety of White Americans, latino Americans, African Americans, Native Americans, Asian Americans, and Arab Americans, with archetypes and professions running a large gamut within all of those groups. But my game is set in present day Arizona, so thematically such diversity makes a lot of sense.

I wish luck to CMON and Rum & Bones, and I hope to see more variety in characters as further stretch goals are unlocked.
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JR Wr
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Well said.

And its a new take on the 'objectifying of women' that CMON is notorious for.

GameMasterX0 wrote:
My friend Patrick, a bisexual African American, always goes for a hot black character.


I do have one question, your friend Patrick, what part of Africa was he born in?
And why would that make him want to play a 'hot black character'?
 
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Michael D. Kelley
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I will clarify that I would not call this "objectifying women". Again, I think that depends more on control and agency of the character than on how they look. A sexy woman with her boobs hanging half out can still be quite strong and in-control, while a fully-clothed female character who does nothing but sit around while men talk at her would be more "objectified", at least in my definition of the term.

As for your question, Patrick is from Detroit. The term "African American" is generally used to refer to individuals who can trace their ancestry to Africa, not who are from Africa themselves. And he wants to play a hot black character because he believes that he is a hot black man (I'm not going to argue ), and he wants his alter-ego in the game to reflect his image of himself.
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JR Wr
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GameMasterX0 wrote:
I will clarify that I would not call this "objectifying women". Again, I think that depends more on control and agency of the character than on how they look. A sexy woman with her boobs hanging half out can still be quite strong and in-control, while a fully-clothed female character who does nothing but sit around while men talk at her would be more "objectified", at least in my definition of the term.


Agreed.

GameMasterX0 wrote:

As for your question, Patrick is from Detroit. The term "African American" is generally used (but not necessarily correctly ) to refer to individuals who can trace their ancestry to Africa, not who are from Africa themselves. And he wants to play a hot black character because he believes that he is a hot black man (I'm not going to argue ), and he wants his alter-ego in the game to reflect his image of himself.


I was being tongue in cheek, as 'African American' by literal definition is someone who is both African and American, ie dual citizen.
Not necessarily a description of ones race.

Point in fact, the only 'true' African American ive ever known is in fact Caucasian by definition. As he is in fact a white man born in South Africa and immigrated to American, and earned his citizenship here while retaining his South African nationality.

And while I dont know his sexual orientation, I cant assume just being from Africa would make him want to play a hot black character.

So, mentioning your friend Patrick being African American, and that he would prefer a hot black character had two effects in my mind.

One, and this being tongue in cheek, why would him being from Africa make him want to play a black character?
(Of course, the obvious being that he is in fact not from Africa. And is in fact a black man, who is American, explains it PC wise).

Two, why have a PC term and, what I consider proper, a descriptive term for the same thing in one sentence?
Ie, African American = Black American, and Black Character being well, a black character.

I just thought Id use the opportunity of your discussion to go on a tangent of a thought paralleling yours, but with races instead of sexes.

Just because a female is full breasted and showing it off, doesnt make her weak.
Likewise, just because someone is black, does not mean he is African.
Even by blood line.
Example, im 1/2 Italian. And I mean from Italy Italian, fathers side.
But I dont consider myself a Italian American. Nor am I even given that option.
See my point there?
Same difference.
Im American by birth, alive by chance, and white by the color of me skin.
Not Italian American.

Anyway, I do hope to not derail your thread further than I already have.
You sparked, what I hope, will be a interesting intellectual conversation.

You had good points regarding the sex side of the equation, thought id mix it up with the race side of it.
Because while sex can be a sensitive subject, race is far even more so.


One final thought, since you said you value woman who are both strong and sexy, check out the Anita Black Vampire Hunter novels.
One of the few books that when a new one comes in, I have to wait my turn behind my wife to read it.

Cheers
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Michael D. Kelley
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I take all your points JR. But like you said, don't want to go too far down a tangential rabbit hole . So I'll leave it at that.
Thanks for the book suggestion. I'll check it out after I finish some Ursula Leguin books I recently checked out. And to stay somewhat of topic, her Earthsea series is a great example of breaking the stereotypes in the fantasy genre of race and gender.
 
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JR Wr
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I tip my hat to you sir.

I'll check her out as well.
I certainly enjoy a good book, or saga of books.
 
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fwiw, Reaper Miniature's most often complained about miniatures during their KS were the "big-breasted women". Then, when Reaper said which miniatures sold the best, the miniatures were, of course, "big-breasted women".

If you're pledging on KS, you're old enough to have a credit card, which means you're an adult and make your own decisions. And, if you're a miniatures company, you know what sells. Which means that your base game doesn't need to hooters because your overpriced add-ons are including as many as possible the most profitable way to fulfil the interests of their target audience.

Though I think it's a case of "if thy eye offends thee, don't back the KS", I'll actually agree that there's a distinction of "objectifying" women, which, imo, isn't too different than, say, racial caricatures. The Reaper forums were *very* enthusiastic about the "Dark Sword Miniatures New Range - Stephanie Law Masterworks" which included female figures of "minimal clothing" yet arguably did not objectify them.

Although, I avoid the skin because it's so hard to paint! laugh
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Michael D. Kelley
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I'm sure you're right about the market. Otherwise why would companies keep designing these types of characters?
That being said, my arguments were not against big breasts. To again use Arcadia Quest, that game has a variety of female archetypes to choose from, which are not solely based on them being female. Every female in the game has huge breasts... It's the art aesthetic of the design. But that's a tangential issue.
Game designers can continue to make games with big-breasted women if they sell, but can we get MORE women with more character variety?

PS - this is a slightly different issue, discussed much more effectively elsewhere, but how do we attract more women and non-whites to our hobbies if companies see what has been selling well in the past to white men, and continue to make the same design choices without expanding the base?
If Rum & Bones had 5 fewer white males, and added more women with varied roles, and more non-white characters, but kept big breasts for the female characters, I don't think it would decrease the buying demographic you identified, but it might open up others as well.
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Patrick Dolan
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To be fair, all of these miniatures were created by a different company for a different product line. CMON just bought the molds and used them to make Rum and Bones, so they are just working with what's available.
 
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Michael D. Kelley
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Pat Dolan wrote:
To be fair, all of these miniatures were created by a different company for a different product line. CMON just bought the molds and used them to make Rum and Bones, so they are just working with what's available.


Is this true for just the main 10 miniatures, or for all of them?

Because if CMON is "unlocking" stretch goals for miniatures that are already fully designed, molded, and ready to produce, instead of actually new stuff for the campaign... Well, that opens some new criticisms of their business practices in this Kickstarter.

But if the campaign continues its successful rise, at some point they'll have to have some completely new characters, we can assume. Do you think they'll have a huge shift in design for those characters, with greater variety?
 
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GameMasterX0 wrote:
PS - this is a slightly different issue, discussed much more effectively elsewhere, but how do we attract more women and non-whites to our hobbies if companies see what has been selling well in the past to white men, and continue to make the same design choices without expanding the base?


I think we're already doing it -- with party games, Eurogames, and (gasp) family games. Most Ameritrash games involve good ol' violence, killing, direct conflict, and more violence. Yeah, it's a broad (har har) statement, but female gamers *generally* do not like the "in your face" direct confrontation that male gamers (viz. teenagers) like, though there are clear exceptions. I once saw a "male scrapbooking" kit, whose designers thought stickers of nuts and bolts would appeal to men. Ummm, no.

Are there any Ameritrash or highly-themed games that don't involve direct conflict and violence? I know it's not too difficult to find or tailor a roleplaying game to gamers who want to do more than just "hack and loot".
 
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GameMasterX0 wrote:
Because if CMON is "unlocking" stretch goals for miniatures that are already fully designed, molded, and ready to produce, instead of actually new stuff for the campaign... Well, that opens some new criticisms of their business practices in this Kickstarter.


For "Rum and Bones", CMON licensed the original "Ron and Bones" game. Seems like CMON would be expected to do some adaptation of existing "Ron and Bones" metal miniature sculpts to plastic form (do a search on "undercuts" why you can't use the same metal sculpt for a plastic mold), then add new sculpts in the "Ron and Bones" style.

I call this the "Not Hollywood" model. laugh

If anyone wants a MOBA game but doesn't like the "Ron and Bones" style... well, they're gonna have to wait for another game.

EDIT: Merchant of Venus is an Ameritrash game that avoids direct confrontation and violence. The depiction of females is not objectified. So to speak!
 
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I'm not complainng about the male:female ratio in Rum and Bones. I guess there were more male pirates anyway.
But I strongly object to the unhealthy example being set here for young female players. Ladies, dressed up like that at sea you are going to catch a serious cold!
 
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mateo jurasic
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i wonder how many female pirates there really were... 0 or 1?
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mateooo wrote:
i wonder how many female pirates there really were... 0 or 1?


If only there was a place you could easily look that up.

Wikipedia lists at least 38 named female pirates, though many more likely existed.
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Michael D. Kelley
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mateooo wrote:
i wonder how many female pirates there really were... 0 or 1?

significantly more than skeleton and zombie pirates.
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Brian Howe
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I mean if we want to talk about being offended, lets go with the idea that pirates were actually some of the cruelest human to live during that time period. They raped and pillaged, let me say that again, raped and pillaged. I feel that people seem to forget that because of all the romanticism that has been made with the pirate theme in the past century. If you really want to complain about gender issues because people can't distinguish fantasy from reality then I think you should probably move towards the mark that glorifying pirates is glorifying the rape of women and children while men are ruthlessly murdered for money. I'm tired of people being offended by every small issue yet it's convenient to ignore other, arguably more morally charged topics. /endrant
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iamefficiency wrote:
I mean if we want to talk about being offended


If you are referring to my post, or any of my subsequent replies, you might note that I am not offended, never claim to be offended, and even titled my post to reflect that.

If you are referring to the posts of others in this thread, then sorry for misunderstanding.

My thread is not that tried and true formula that crops up in games often: "this game offends me, so I think it shouldn't be made", or any of the derivations thereof. I personally subscribe to Stephen Fry's stance on being "offended" by something.



But again, that doesn't apply to this thread.


iamefficiency wrote:
They raped and pillaged, let me say that again, raped and pillaged. I feel that people seem to forget that because of all the romanticism that has been made with the pirate theme in the past century. If you really want to complain about gender issues because people can't distinguish fantasy from reality then I think you should probably move towards the mark that glorifying pirates is glorifying the rape of women and children while men are ruthlessly murdered for money.


Again, my post is a suggestion that the game could include a greater variety of female characters and non-white characters, so that it could attract a wider audience and so that a greater number of players could find a preferred avatar while playing it. I'm not really sure how your argument applies to that in any way.

I'm guessing that you didn't read my post. It was pretty long, so I can't say I blame you!

But I'd still like to respond to your point here. Over the last century and a half or so (since at least Treasure Island) there has been a pirate mythos that has developed, quite divorced from true facts about pirates. In these depictions, pirates are invariably violent, sometimes heroic and sometimes dastardly, often after gold (and the burying thereof), etc.

I think it's fair for games, literature, and movies to be created that follow this long-developed mythos. Such works of art don't glorify the horrific acts of REAL pirates. They are simply working within a genre that has been built up over decades.

Similarly, playing a game about ninjas (or more accurately their divorced from history mythical archetype) doesn't mean that you support assassination of innocent people. Even playing historical games, like controlling Nazi soldiers in a war game, doesn't mean that you are "glorifying" Nazi atrocities, does it?

So again, I'm not really sure what your point is here. Sorry if I'm just misunderstanding!

iamefficiency wrote:
I'm tired of people being offended by every small issue yet it's convenient to ignore other, arguably more morally charged topics. /endrant


Me too!
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James Clarke
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Ah BoardGameGeek, I love you.

Where else can you talk about breasts on a miniature, and still be taken seriously?
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Brian Howe
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Wasn't at you OP, though you addressed that. Sorry I didn't specify. My point though since you did address it is if people are going to look into something so closely to be offended and raise a ruckus, then why ignore the other bit? The comparison to Nazis doesn't really translate well though I don't think. Playing Nazis in a war game doesn't do anything to glamorize them, but could you imagine a Disney movie series about cheeky Nazis? Probably not, but imagine the world wide butt hurt that would be triggered. In the end though we agree based on your Fry quote. I did read your post, some others were what inspired my reply however, so again sorry for not using the quote button.
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There is only one sad thing about this thread, and that is that you had to prefix your argument by 30 lines of forestalling kneejerk criticism for your valid and well-reasoned thoughts.

GameMasterX0 wrote:
Because if CMON is "unlocking" stretch goals for miniatures that are already fully designed, molded, and ready to produce, instead of actually new stuff for the campaign... Well, that opens some new criticisms of their business practices in this Kickstarter.

This is their established-and-true modus operandi, which I too find rather objectionable and problematic. Similar to the KS exclusives in a way: they make steel moulds, which are the most expensive part of the production process, which are thereafter not used. It is throwing money away, but on the other hand they see their business model as driven by exclusives and "revealing new" models over the course of a campaign, so it might be legitimate business expenses to them. On the other hand, let's not go deeper into this can of worms in your thread or there will be flames.
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Mikademus wrote:
There is only one sad thing about this thread, and that is that you had to prefix your argument by 30 lines of forestalling kneejerk criticism for your valid and well-reasoned thoughts.

GameMasterX0 wrote:
Because if CMON is "unlocking" stretch goals for miniatures that are already fully designed, molded, and ready to produce, instead of actually new stuff for the campaign... Well, that opens some new criticisms of their business practices in this Kickstarter.


That's the only thing you find sad about this thread?

 
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cbazler wrote:


That's the only thing you find sad about this thread?

[/q]

Didn't look that deep, I'm certain there might be more. You probably meant my own post; if so, well done clap clap. I basically wanted to express sympathies with the OP, appreciation for the politeness of the thread and the thoughts that have gone into the posts. And I found it sad that the only way to achieve that was by prefixing it with a TL;DR-sized chunk of pre-emption and constantly warding off exactly what he asked not to be attributed to him.
 
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Mikademus wrote:
cbazler wrote:


That's the only thing you find sad about this thread?


Didn't look that deep, I'm certain there might be more. You probably meant my own post; if so, well done clap clap. I basically wanted to express sympathies with the OP, appreciation for the politeness of the thread and the thoughts that have gone into the posts. And I found it sad that the only way to achieve that was by prefixing it with a TL;DR-sized chunk of pre-emption and constantly warding off exactly what he asked not to be attributed to him.


No, I didn't mean your post, though I think your particular criticism is irrelevant to this discussion. I also didn't mean the OP, whom I thought was well-intentioned, even though I disagree with him on a few points. But since you asked, and as (apparently) BGG's only full-time, perpetually-indignant SJW, I will give my own take on this thread.

This is a hobby in which women are seriously underrepresented, BGG even more seriously so, with almost 93% of active users self-identifying as men. Whenever this subject comes up, people inevitably use that very fact, not as a means to say, "hey, maybe we should think about why women are so turned off by this hobby and attempt to address it as a problem that can be solved." Instead, that fact is used as justification for this kind of artwork/characterization, as if it's just a natural and normal consequence of a hobby that "women simply don't like." Any objection to these kinds of depictions is dismissed as just "Political Correctness run amok."

So here we have a a dozen or so men saying why the artwork doesn't bother them, and shouldn't bother others, with (apart from the OP) very little discussion of how it might affect women's desire or willingness to play this game. Instead, we are told that any women alienated by this content should just go away. Either that, or they should instead be outraged by violence and murder, and are actually hypocrites that actually shouldn't be addressing this issue at all.

"So fucking what," says Stephen Fry. How convenient for the status quo. I wonder why only 7% of users here are women...
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mateo jurasic
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why not just ask women why they dont game more, and their feelings on the boobs.
Mateo
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