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Subject: Last player always lose? rss

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Máté Kovács
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Hi, we played this game a few times, and we also played it with Factions, with 5 players.

So, we saw that the last player lose a lot. Usually every player stole assets from him. The last player can collect things, like dices or goods, but after a while, at the last section of the game, he is never in the front-line.

Other thing is many times every other players stole from the last one, and he can't collect back the lost.

What do you think? Is this last player curse a real thing, or this was just bad luck?
 
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Chris Berger
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Bastion wrote:
Other thing is many times every other players stole from the last one, and he can't collect back the lost.


Why can't the last player steal from the others?

One of the common mistakes that has people claiming there's a first-player advantage is clearing off all the dice from the board after the last player's turn. You're not doing that, are you? Each player collects their own dice at the beginning of their turn.
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Aaron Natera
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Played last night, the last player won and he had never played before. I was the first player, and though I'm experienced I came in dead last.

If there is a first player advantage I must be a pretty bad first player!
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Máté Kovács
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arkayn wrote:
Bastion wrote:
Other thing is many times every other players stole from the last one, and he can't collect back the lost.


Why can't the last player steal from the others?

One of the common mistakes that has people claiming there's a first-player advantage is clearing off all the dice from the board after the last player's turn. You're not doing that, are you? Each player collects their own dice at the beginning of their turn.


Of course not

For the stealing: sometimes a player has to collect goods for two or more turns, to reach what he wants to do. But it is a usual step, that players steal from the last player, so they get it immediately. Of course, they could steal from other too, and they do, but many times the last player get most of the bad luck.

Es-specially at 5 player game. When it is the 4-5th player's turn, he can't do much effective action, cause all the good places are taken, and the previous players stole everything from them. So they are now in a forever bad luck circle, and they just serve the other players, like Transylvanians Count Dracula.
 
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Wally Jones
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Stealing from the last player is a choice.

That is your groups play-style. Picking on the weak instead of the leader.
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Máté Kovács
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Rygel wrote:
Stealing from the last player is a choice.

That is your groups play-style. Picking on the weak instead of the leader.


Not at all, we usually attack the leader, I just say that many times the last player is, who just collected some stuff, and we take that. Not because we like to attack one person, but we immediately need that element to build our own ship or colony.
 
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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Bastion wrote:
For the stealing: sometimes a player has to collect goods for two or more turns, to reach what he wants to do. But it is a usual step, that players steal from the last player, so they get it immediately.

...

Es-specially at 5 player game. When it is the 4-5th player's turn, he can't do much effective action, cause all the good places are taken, and the previous players stole everything from them.


But if they use all 3 dice to steal, they can't consume those goods on that turn, leaving them just as vulnerable to the next person.

-----

How is it possible that "all the good places are taken" when only 9 total dice have been placed, and 3 of those dice were placed on the raiders outpost?

-----

I'm really concerned there is a rule you are playing incorrectly. Stealing is generally not a terribly effective opening move.
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Clint Herron
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Bastion wrote:
Es-specially at 5 player game. When it is the 4-5th player's turn, he can't do much effective action, cause all the good places are taken, and the previous players stole everything from them. So they are now in a forever bad luck circle, and they just serve the other players, like Transylvanians Count Dracula.

After the initial turn, there is no "first" player -- everyone's dice stays on the board for everyone else's turn.

I wonder if you're happening to be removing everyone's dice from the board after the "last" player's turn each time? If so, then that indeed would give a significant advantage to the earlier players.

If this happens to be how you're playing it, don't feel bad -- this mistake has happened before, but expect a very different play experience if you leave all dice on the board after every turn. Only take a player's dice off of the board at the start of that player's turn.
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Máté Kovács
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No, we do not remove the dices.

For the stealing, usually it is not an opening move, rather it is a midgame move.
 
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Clint Herron
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Bastion wrote:
No, we do not remove the dices.

For the stealing, usually it is not an opening move, rather it is a midgame move.


Hmmm. Might have just been bad luck then. I've never personally seen a "last player's curse", but I also haven't done much play with 5 players.


In general, it feels to me like the first player has a definite advantage for grabbing early ore. The second player has perhaps the roughest spot, but can often grab some very good alien tech early. The third player is the one who has the best chance of building a 4th ship on the first turn (only need to roll a pair and place the 3rd die on the Solar Collector). The fourth and fifth players needs to be creative with their opening, but options to grab alien tech or start pounding on the Colonist Hub are both very good options. There are so many paths in the game, one of the biggest things that can hurt a player is to find one strategy and "force" it when really one needs to be flexible in ones' approach to the game.

So it could be a string of bad luck, or it could be a lack of flexibility, but I also can't speak very well into the nuances of a five player game.
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Máté Kovács
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Wise thoughts, thanks!

HanClinto wrote:
Bastion wrote:
No, we do not remove the dices.

For the stealing, usually it is not an opening move, rather it is a midgame move.


Hmmm. Might have just been bad luck then. I've never personally seen a "last player's curse", but I also haven't done much play with 5 players.


In general, it feels to me like the first player has a definite advantage for grabbing early ore. The second player has perhaps the roughest spot, but can often grab some very good alien tech early. The third player is the one who has the best chance of building a 4th ship on the first turn (only need to roll a pair and place the 3rd die on the Solar Collector). The fourth and fifth players needs to be creative with their opening, but options to grab alien tech or start pounding on the Colonist Hub are both very good options. There are so many paths in the game, one of the biggest things that can hurt a player is to find one strategy and "force" it when really one needs to be flexible in ones' approach to the game.

So it could be a string of bad luck, or it could be a lack of flexibility, but I also can't speak very well into the nuances of a five player game.
 
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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Bastion wrote:
No, we do not remove the dices.

For the stealing, usually it is not an opening move, rather it is a midgame move.


If it is a midgame thing, I really don't understand how the player's initial position has any relevance to how often he gets stolen from.

Perhaps its a groupthink issue. The person who has gone last has tended to hold more resources during the midgame, making them a nice target.

Regardless of which position one starts in, holding resources is a dubious position.
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Max
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You mention having few options, you know that the 5 player variant is only "recommended" if you play with Factions right?
 
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Randall Bart
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Clearly you have something wrong. The normal error hurts the last player most, but you are not describing the normal error. You are describing a game group that is picking on one player, and you are complaining that you are picking on one player. You say that you aren't really picking on one player, but this thread would be less confusing if you would stop describing it that way.

So I will boldly guess that you are committing the normal error: There are no rounds in Alien Frontiers. You must be clearing the board for the first player so that he always has a full selection, then later players are squeezed out. You never clear the board. When you place a ship (die) on the board it stays there until your next turn.
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Máté Kovács
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Barticus88 wrote:
...

So I will boldly guess that you are committing the normal error: There are no rounds in Alien Frontiers. You must be clearing the board for the first player so that he always has a full selection, then later players are squeezed out. You never clear the board. When you place a ship (die) on the board it stays there until your next turn.


Like I sad, we do not do any normal error.

All I'm saying, that we feel that the last player has worse chance to win, than the rest. A few of you sad, they do not feel this way. I was just curios about opinions.
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J J
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Bastion wrote:
Barticus88 wrote:
...

So I will boldly guess that you are committing the normal error: There are no rounds in Alien Frontiers. You must be clearing the board for the first player so that he always has a full selection, then later players are squeezed out. You never clear the board. When you place a ship (die) on the board it stays there until your next turn.


Like I sad, we do not do any normal error.

All I'm saying, that we feel that the last player has worse chance to win, than the rest. A few of you sad, they do not feel this way. I was just curios about opinions.


Then why did you say this?

Bastion wrote:

Es-specially at 5 player game. When it is the 4-5th player's turn, he can't do much effective action, cause all the good places are taken, and the previous players stole everything from them. So they are now in a forever bad luck circle, and they just serve the other players, like Transylvanians Count Dracula.


The only explanation for the 4th or 5th player having any less options than the other players after the initial round of play is that you are doing something to create options for those other players.

After the first round, which is the only time any player has a wide-open board to choose from, every player faces the same board state - crammed with other players' dice.

Now this might well be because you are playing with 5 people - the board is not designed for so many dice. But the way you keep describing it makes it sound like something else.
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Max
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I'm also going to guess that something is being lost in translation, the OP isn't a native English speaker.
 
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Marc S
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The problem the OP describes seems to boil down to the fact that other players can steal another player's starting resources (the last player is an obvious target since they have the most starting resources) before the player has a chance to take a turn. This may tip the balance in the opening turn of the game which was intended to be mitigated by the starting resources. If this is an issue, I would consider a house rule preventing the smuggler's den before everyone has had at least one turn.

 
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J J
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marcss wrote:
The problem the OP describes seems to boil down to the fact that other players can steal another player's starting resources (the last player is an obvious target since they have the most starting resources) before the player has a chance to take a turn. This may tip the balance in the opening turn of the game which was intended to be mitigated by the starting resources. If this is an issue, I would consider a house rule preventing the smuggler's den before everyone has had at least one turn.



Except that the OP is referring to everyone stealing from the "last" player throughout the course of the game, not just the starting bonus.
 
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Fernando Robert Yu
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I've played the game more than 10 times, and I have not noticed that this is the case, although the most we have played is 4P as the game can get really long otherwise. I actually like being the 4th player since you get 1 fuel and 1 ore already. Being stolen from is not a given, since players still need to roll consecutive numbers. Even if they did and roll high, it is still better to place those dice on the board since you get more resources that way.
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Bob Schrempp
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Bastion wrote:
No, we do not remove the dices.

For the stealing, usually it is not an opening move, rather it is a midgame move.

If your players cab roll a straight with three dice on the first roll, more power to them.
 
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Bob Schrempp
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I feel the fourth player is in the best place. He has both resources and only needs a pair to get a fourth ship.

The first player cannot get a ship. No way to get the resources and have the pair left to build a ship.

Second and third player can both get a fourth die.

IF second, third and fourth all get a fourth die. Then when it wraps back around to the "first player" he cannot build a fourth ship even if he gets a pair. All the spaces will be full.

I feel the first player is at the disadvantage, for the first round or two.
 
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bschremp wrote:
The first player cannot get a ship. No way to get the resources and have the pair left to build a ship.


Start with orbital teleporter, roll a pair and have at least one die be a 5 or 6. Place the 5 or 6 to get 3 energy, place a die on the lunar mine to get 1 ore, leaving one die of the pair unplaced. Place the remaining die on the shipyard and move its twin there with the orbital teleporter.

ETA: Or just start with the resource cache and pretend you're player 2 or 3. whistle
 
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Bob Schrempp
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Peristarkawan wrote:
bschremp wrote:
The first player cannot get a ship. No way to get the resources and have the pair left to build a ship.


Start with orbital teleporter, roll a pair and have at least one die be a 5 or 6. Place the 5 or 6 to get 3 energy, place a die on the lunar mine to get 1 ore, leaving one die of the pair unplaced. Place the remaining die on the shipyard and move its twin there with the orbital teleporter.


OK if you have the one card in the deck as your start card.
 
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Max
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There are a few cards in the expansion (which the OP has) that also allow for the possability.
 
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