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Liberty or Death: The American Insurrection» Forums » General

Subject: Inter-alliance rivalry rss

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Geoffrey Wilson
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Correction: should be INTRA-alliance rivalry

As a big fan on the COIN series, I'm looking forward to this one!

The series is known for its wheeling-and-dealing, and for tension between ostensibly allied factions.

I'm curious: how do the British and the Indians, and then the French and Americans, compete/interfere with their respective "allies"?

Thanks!
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Marco Poutré
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There is currently a concept of primary/secondary win conditions. During a Winter Quarters (Propaganda/Coup) round, the primary win condition (Support vs Opposition) is checked. If one side exceeds it by 10, then this side's faction with the highest secondary win condition wins.

If the game goes the distance, an interesting twist has been recently added : Every faction basically adds its primary win condition to its secondary win condition. Whichever faction has the highest total wins. This means that technically, the British could be behind as far as Support vs Opposition go (Let's say -1) but being so dominant with their Rebel vs British casualties (Let's say 10) that their combined total is +9, enough to be ahead of everyone else.

So you definitely can't neglect your common primary win condition because it can mean an auto-loss during a Winter Quarters round but at the same time, as the game draws to an end, you have to save your own skin and start seriously thinking about your secondary win condition.

Intriguing to be sure, there is still only one winner but it's the closest alliance we've seen in the COIN system so far.
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Max DuBoff
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Marcon wrote:
There is currently a concept of primary/secondary win conditions. During a Winter Quarters (Propaganda/Coup) round, the primary win condition (Support vs Opposition) is checked. If one side exceeds it by 10, then this side's faction with the highest secondary win condition wins.

If the game goes the distance, an interesting twist has been recently added : Every faction basically adds its primary win condition to its secondary win condition. Whichever faction has the highest total wins. This means that technically, the British could be behind as far as Support vs Opposition go (Let's say -1) but being so dominant with their Rebel vs British casualties (Let's say 10) that their combined total is +9, enough to be ahead of everyone else.

So you definitely can't neglect your common primary win condition because it can mean an auto-loss during a Winter Quarters round but at the same time, as the game draws to an end, you have to save your own skin and start seriously thinking about your secondary win condition.

Intriguing to be sure, there is still only one winner but it's the closest alliance we've seen in the COIN system so far.


Right, to add onto what Marco was saying, you really need to balance your primary and secondary win conditions and make sure your ally doesn't get too far ahead on his because then it doesn't matter if you do well on support/opposition because you'll definitely lose on the secondary one. The interplay between the primary and secondary conditions means that it's not always the best play to help your ally. Additionally, you can sometimes force your ally to do things for you (e.g. marching or battling), which provides lots of opportunities for clever players to take advantage of.
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Geoffrey Wilson
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Marcon wrote:
There is currently a concept of primary/secondary win conditions. During a Winter Quarters (Propaganda/Coup) round, the primary win condition (Support vs Opposition) is checked. If one side exceeds it by 10, then this side's faction with the highest secondary win condition wins.

If the game goes the distance, an interesting twist has been recently added : Every faction basically adds its primary win condition to its secondary win condition. Whichever faction has the highest total wins. This means that technically, the British could be behind as far as Support vs Opposition go (Let's say -1) but being so dominant with their Rebel vs British casualties (Let's say 10) that their combined total is +9, enough to be ahead of everyone else.

So you definitely can't neglect your common primary win condition because it can mean an auto-loss during a Winter Quarters round but at the same time, as the game draws to an end, you have to save your own skin and start seriously thinking about your secondary win condition.

Intriguing to be sure, there is still only one winner but it's the closest alliance we've seen in the COIN system so far.


I really like the sound of that, sounds like a clever innovation for the system. What are the secondary victory conditions for the Indians and French, if the Americans and British are looking at net casualties?
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Marco Poutré
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something wrote:
Marcon wrote:
There is currently a concept of primary/secondary win conditions. During a Winter Quarters (Propaganda/Coup) round, the primary win condition (Support vs Opposition) is checked. If one side exceeds it by 10, then this side's faction with the highest secondary win condition wins.

If the game goes the distance, an interesting twist has been recently added : Every faction basically adds its primary win condition to its secondary win condition. Whichever faction has the highest total wins. This means that technically, the British could be behind as far as Support vs Opposition go (Let's say -1) but being so dominant with their Rebel vs British casualties (Let's say 10) that their combined total is +9, enough to be ahead of everyone else.

So you definitely can't neglect your common primary win condition because it can mean an auto-loss during a Winter Quarters round but at the same time, as the game draws to an end, you have to save your own skin and start seriously thinking about your secondary win condition.

Intriguing to be sure, there is still only one winner but it's the closest alliance we've seen in the COIN system so far.


I really like the sound of that, sounds like a clever innovation for the system. What are the secondary victory conditions for the Indians and French, if the Americans and British are looking at net casualties?


Basically, Indians need to have more Villages than the Patriots' Forts.
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Max DuBoff
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something wrote:
Marcon wrote:
There is currently a concept of primary/secondary win conditions. During a Winter Quarters (Propaganda/Coup) round, the primary win condition (Support vs Opposition) is checked. If one side exceeds it by 10, then this side's faction with the highest secondary win condition wins.

If the game goes the distance, an interesting twist has been recently added : Every faction basically adds its primary win condition to its secondary win condition. Whichever faction has the highest total wins. This means that technically, the British could be behind as far as Support vs Opposition go (Let's say -1) but being so dominant with their Rebel vs British casualties (Let's say 10) that their combined total is +9, enough to be ahead of everyone else.

So you definitely can't neglect your common primary win condition because it can mean an auto-loss during a Winter Quarters round but at the same time, as the game draws to an end, you have to save your own skin and start seriously thinking about your secondary win condition.

Intriguing to be sure, there is still only one winner but it's the closest alliance we've seen in the COIN system so far.


I really like the sound of that, sounds like a clever innovation for the system. What are the secondary victory conditions for the Indians and French, if the Americans and British are looking at net casualties?


The Secondary Victory Conditions pit the Patriots and Indians against each other (forts vs. villages) and the French and British against each other (casualties).
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Geoffrey Wilson
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Interesting. Makes sense, I think. Thanks for the information, everyone!
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Harold Buchanan
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Hey Geoff

Marco and Max nailed it. I thought I might drop in a few ideas flying over at 30,000 feet.

The idea was to recognize the basic competitive issues for factions in the game. First is the fight for the alignment of the population. The population may Support or Oppose (or remain Neutral) to the British Government. If Supported by a wide enough margin then the British or Indians may win. If Opposed by a wide enough margin then the Patriots or French may win.

The secondary victory conditions recognize the competition between the British and the French - and the Patriots and the Indians. The British and the French had a world wide rivalry and this was a side show - but a great place to get the other side tied up and distracted from the West Indies etc. The Patriots and the Indians wanted to establish themselves for life after the war. The Indians chose the British because they were their best bet at enforcing the Proclamation like of 1763. It had to be enforced because the colonists wouldn't honor it.

Hope all of that helps. It is different from the other COIN games in that you are literally competing with other factions as opposed to competing against 0. At the same time, it is probably the most 2v2 of COIN games to date.

Harold
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Max DuBoff
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I've always felt that part of the brilliance of the game, however, is that it manages to include more cooperative alliances without sacrificing the cutthroat feel of COIN.
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