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Subject: Bella Rosarum: map rss

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Greg Sarnecki
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Well, for those brave enough for something new and rather detailed, here is my map for Bella Rosarum, The Wars of the Roses.

Apologies for the poor rendition: it is a jpeg screen shot of a pdf of an XL file. (The boldface doesn't render very well. The pdf version is much better.)
I have crown and event cards, as well as files for printing the counters out on self-adhesive labels.
I'll post more if there's interest.
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Lewis Goldberg
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Wow! Beautiful.

I am interested.
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Leo Zappa
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Very impressive - clearly a labor of love! As for files, at this point I think most of us would be most interested in the rules file. That's the key, to see how you have improved upon the original, which while a fine game, did have some issues (not least of which were victory conditions that could result in a very long and drawn out end game sequence). If you would post your rules, I'm sure many of us would review them happily.
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Greg Sarnecki
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Bella Rosarum can be played in one of three ways:
A. Mostly like the original Kingmaker game from which it was inspired;
B. Using the new advanced rules;
C. Plus use of additional, optional rules.

It sounds like folks are more interested in B than A.

How do you post .doc files to this site though? Do I have to scan them into image files and then post the .jpg?

I'll post some images of the cards in the meantime.
Here is Neville the Kingmaker, as Captain of Calais, with the treacherous Andrew Trollope in tow:

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Lewis Goldberg
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shturmovik14 wrote:
Bella Rosarum can be played in one of three ways:

It sounds like folks are more interested in B than A.


A for me!

shturmovik14 wrote:


How do you post .doc files to this site though? Do I have to scan them into image files and then post the .jpg?


You would have to submit them to the Files section. They have to go through Geekmod before thy show up for use. That takes anywhere from a few hours to a few days, depoending on how busy things are.
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Paul Lach
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Love the work you have put into this. I am also very interested in what additional information you can provide/post. Probably more interested in newer, updated rules than original but I'd still be very interested in your redesigned material if others' preference is for the "A" version. Thanks.
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Greg Sarnecki
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Looking to re-post the most recent version of the map, although I am working on a higher-res version still, plus a simplified map for use with just the Intro Rules.

What other info do you want me to post?
I plan to put a lot of info in the designer notes (although that will be a project unto itself!)

I think there'll be some who just want a very Kingmaker-esque experience and some others who may want to go the whole hog and try the game as I intended it to be. My Intro Rules are there to provide a bridge between the old and the new.
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Rob McCray

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Greg,

Are you building or interested in a vassal module for Bella Rosarum? I could easily mod my Kingmaker - Deluxe module for the Bella Rosarum Graphics? If there's an audience, it would be a great way to put the whole Bella Rosarum experience in one place.

Rob
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Greg Sarnecki
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Sure, Vassal would be great!

However, I think some playtesting from a wider audience is probably best first of all.

It's time for me to collate the usernames of all who have expressed interest here at BGG in playtesting this, and help them get their own Bella Rosarum sets made, since it's a DIY-production process.

Of course, the alternative is to use Vassal as the playtesting medium!
It all depends how much hassle it is to put a Vassal version together versus card and paper ones.
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Rob McCray

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It depends. If the graphics are already created, the vassal module night be faster. It is certainly a way to control the playtesting environment so everyone is seeing the same product. I can generally throw a vassal module together in about two weeks give or take for the amount of graphics manipulation I have to do. If I have graphics pre-made to the right shape, I can feasibly build a working module in a day. Since the Kingmaker - Deluxe module is already built, it is just a matter of swapping out the graphics.

The main delay right now would be how soon I can get to it. I have about 2-3 ideas for modules I am working on now, with no set precedence.

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Greg Sarnecki
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I'm in no great rush.
If playtesters want to wait until a VASL version is ready, who am I to object?

The map did just upload to BGG, so you can see the latest version in the uploads section.
(I just found 2 errors as well! Winchester should be in white text since it is a city, and Durham castle should have a purple surround, just like Winchester does, because it is controlled by a cleric.)

In the end, I just want to bring a more accurate version to people's attention. Once I started delving, it took me several weeks to fully accept that the old Kingmaker map and list of nobles was flawed, so I don't expect people to embrace the new map and deck right away. Hard to unlearn 40 years of perceived reality!

Does the new pdf version of the map suffice for your purposes, or are you looking for it in a different format? Do you need the source heraldic symbol image files?
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Ken Vreeman
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What map making tools would any of you recommend?

I am only familiar with AutoCAD and Revit as these tools are in my trade. I usually free hand my maps on matt-board and paint. Getting tired of this and its so time consuming. I'm wanting a more professional look.
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Greg Sarnecki
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Just for the record, I use MS Excel. It's not ideal, but I know my way around it really well, so I know how to push it to its limits.

Right now I am finishing up my Bella Rosarum map v.2. It uses a much more detailed base map, so the potential resolution is about 4 times higher ie you will be able to print out a much larger version of the map.

Also, I've continued to do even more research, in light of my playtests of BR v.1. Found some excellent info on Welsh castles, as well as made some corrections and additions to both nobles and offices: e.g Clifford is now a 20+30 as befits his ~500 men he brought with him to the Battle of Ferrybridge; Butler's estates are better mapped out; Orford is re-assigned to Welles (the Devereux's got Orford some time after the WotR); minor corrections to CDL office; etc, etc.

Mapping out genealogies of nearly all the nobles' families and their inter-relationships has helped clarify some issues as well.
Road network has been revamped a little too. A cut here, a tweak there.
Also including the English Pale (in Ireland): kind of like the Pale of Calais in game terms.

I hope this is the last major revision I have to make, but I have been saying that since I produced my first draft map last autumn! Hope to get the new one published here at BGG by the end of summer. Still have many XL pixels to colour in though...
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Brian Moran
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Greg, did this project ever get completed? I'd love to check it out.
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Greg Sarnecki
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Pretty much, yes.
I have posted the map (v. 2.1), Crown Deck, Event Deck and Introductory Rules. Still tweaking the Advanced Rules.
Always looking to improve on things, so I keep re-reading my sources.
Indeed, I found an error on the map, after finding a copy of a medieval manuscript with the relative locations of the Pale of Calais castles: turns out Hammes is more in a straight line between Guisnes and Calais, so I'll have to correct that in v.2.2. Also, Devon's coat of arms on the map edge is a prior one I used and not the quartered variation that is on the Crown Deck card/ the one used on the map proper.
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Brian Moran
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Do you have a link for your rules?
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Greg Sarnecki
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In the Files section:
https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/130165/bella-rosarum-intr...
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