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Subject: Can raiders move sea-to-sea by default? Which rules to use? rss

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Hulloh

I checked out Lew's rules on http://www.pulsipher.net/britannia/index.htm and noticed that there are small discrepancies between them and the printed rules + errata.

-Can raiders move sea-to-sea even if the nation has no boat movement? For example, can the turn 11 Danish raiders (no boat movement) in the North Sea move to the Frisian sea and land from there? Lew's rules say they can, but I find nothing in the printed rules stating or implying that they could.

-Does a Saxon burh count towards the population maximum of the Saxons? That is, can the Saxons build armies until they run out of playing pieces, or do the burhs count towards the population cap? For example, can a Saxon player with 3 burhs in play have 20 (all counters used) or 17 armies on board?

Is there a difference between Lew's rules and the printed ones, or am I just missing something? If there's a difference, which set is the one commonly used? Which is used for tournaments?
 
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Richard Young
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Re: Can raiders move sea-to-sea by default? Which rules to u
Good questions! I've noticed that sometimes raiders have boat movement and sometimes they don't, implying there must be a difference in what they are capable of doing. As far as the Burhs go, they are a form of fortification like the Roman forts so should have nothing to do with population limits.
 
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Lewis Pulsipher
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Re: Can raiders move sea-to-sea by default? Which rules to u
There are not supposed to be differences between the rules + errata and my posted rules, but little questions keep cropping up.

Sea raiders can indeed move to adjacent seas in most cases (there are some prohibitions on where various raiders/invaders can land). This is how it's played in tournaments. Boats reflect the ability of people already on land to build boats and move in them over sea. The raiders have to be coming by boat, don't they?

There are discrepancies between my rules and the printed rules about burhs. I'm afraid that at times the FFG folks just didn't realize that little things in the rules really can make a difference, on occasion. Or they didn't realize they were changing something. Fortunately, the likelihood that there will be burhs on the board and lots and lots of Saxon armies is vanishingly small, as the Saxons won't be able to build burhs if they're doing that well.

We just discussed the discrepancies on Eurobrit, and the simple thing is to count a burh as an army for all purposes except movement. By that criterion, burhs do count against the Saxon maximum.

As far as I'm concerned, my submitted rules are what truly count. On the other hand, people have to play with what's printed, of course, and at WBC they use the printed rules with errata.
 
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Re: Can raiders move sea-to-sea by default? Which rules to u
lewpuls wrote:
The raiders have to be coming by boat, don't they?


Aye, but lack of boat movement rules could be rationalized as the raiders' logistical capacity limiting their raiding range somewhat.

lewpuls wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, my submitted rules are what truly count. On the other hand, people have to play with what's printed, of course, and at WBC they use the printed rules with errata.


Righto, I'll have to agree with my gaming group on how to do it.
 
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Stephen Braund
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Throughout the history of Britannia there's this thing about the Boat rules and people thinking they affect Invaders/Raiders. It's always a bit puzzling (and maybe not helped by some of the boat-related graphics on our new timeline).

Boats are a specific rule affecting movement from a land area to another land area through a sea area.

Boats are an extra thing that land-based forces can do. To be fair to people reading the FFG rules for the first time the Boat rule on Page 8 doesn't really come out and say this out loud. However it is at the end of the conventional movement rules, before the discussion on Invaders begins.

Invaders (raiders too - there is no distinction between raiders and invaders) get to move through neighbouring sea areas regardless of the presence of boats on the timeline. They will only be limited by any landing restrictions they have.

Invasion rules are separate from Boats. Indeed the reason nations often don't get Boats when they first appear is that they won't have any armies that can move from land, and so will not be able to use the Boat rule.

Invaders may always move to another sea area under point 2 on Page 9. Again, specific invasion restrictions might prevent this, but not a lack of Boats.

So for example:

Danish raiders on Round 11 will all be at sea, and so the Boat rule for land-to-land-via-sea movement cannot be used even if they did have them. But point 2 is in force, and a movement to a neighbouring sea area is allowed as usual, and so a move through Frisian Sea from North Sea is fine.

However, compare Norwegians on Round 15 - they have a leader who can let them move three areas, so they could move North Sea, York, Frisian Sea, Kent all on their first move, and are given Boats on that Round to allow such a move. Also the Norwegians have a Major Invasion, so will likely all be on land after their first move, so could also use Boats on their second move, for example from Cheshire to Avalon via Atlantic Ocean.

But those Norwegians can't change sea areas, regardless of having Boats, because of their landing restrictions. They must initially land from North Sea.
 
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Stephen Braund
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As for rules, we're using the published rules and errata, and go back to Lew's rules for intent. I noticed on FFG's message boards one of the contributors (Pandy) said that it was unlikely that FFG would redo the rules without an actual reprinting.

My attitude is we'll see about that. I do hope that all of these questions and weaknesses in the rules can be collated. Some of us will be using these rules for decades to come, and having to 'just print out the rules and the errata and remember what's what' isn't very good at all, especially if you're explaining things to new people. We have the ability to produce a proper set between the punters, Lew and FFG, it would be lame not to do something. Given that an actual reprint isn't likely then there might have to be two sets of rules on their site - the one in the box and the 'proper' set. Hell, the errata weren't even in the box, and that was something I would have thought was the least they could do - but this is old ground.

Any re-presented rules need not be any time soon, but at some point in the nearer future, in shaa' allah.
 
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Richard Young
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Re: Can raiders move sea-to-sea by default? Which rules to u
stevebritgimp wrote:
Hell, the errata weren't even in the box, and that was something I would have thought was the least they could do - but this is old ground...Any re-presented rules need not be any time soon, but at some point in the nearer future, in shaa' allah.


Amen (and thank-you for the additional clarification)!!!
 
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Lewis Pulsipher
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Re: Can raiders move sea-to-sea by default? Which rules to u
I was disappointed that the errata weren't in the box. However, someone suggested to me that for contractual reasons FFG might not have been able to put them in the box. That is, if the insert problem and the quality of the nation card stock were the printer's fault, and the printer had to pay for the "fix", then if FFG also included errata the opening of the box could be construed as FFG's problem and the printer might not have paid fully for it.

Who knows?

My contact at FFG (the rules rewriter) has gone to part time working from home, the email address of the development VP bounces, and I can't get a word out of the Webmaster and the project manager for Brit; they currently don't list any job openings; so I suspect FFG is retrenching a bit.

In the UNlikely event that they reprint the game, they might consider combining/straightening out the rules, but that's distant-future.

Lew
 
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