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Dungeons & Dragons: Castle Ravenloft Board Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: The "Start Tile" Definition rss

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Brian Hargraves
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I understand the following ...

The Start tile: The Start tile is where the Heroes usually enter
the dungeon and begin their adventure. It’s twice the size of the
other tiles. The Start tile actually consists of two separate tiles
that are already connected; treat each as its own tile for the
purposes of movement and counting tiles.


... but what do you do with rules like the one on the Flesh Golem or Young Vampire's card:

If the Flesh Golem is on a Start Tile, the active hero takes one damage.

If the Young Vampire is on a Start Tile, the active hero takes one damage.

In the first rule, the "Start Tile" is only the stairs portion when it comes to game mechanics. In the second rule, are both portions considered the "Start Tile"? The Golem and Young Vampire rules are not "movement and counting tiles".

This has happened on a few other situations as well, where there is no clear definition on what the "Start Tile" actually means.

Has there been any official clarification? Or even fan consensus? I have looked, but have never found it.

Thanks in advance for replies!
 
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Tor Sverre Lund
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Only half of the start tile is the actual "Start Tile" when referenced in monster AI etc. I know, they could definitely have worded that better.
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Brian Hargraves
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Gawain wrote:
Only half of the start tile is the actual "Start Tile" when referenced in monster AI etc. I know, they could definitely have worded that better.


So you are basically saying this?:

The Start tile: The Start tile is where the Heroes usually enter
the dungeon and begin their adventure. It’s twice the size of the
other tiles. The Start tile actually consists of two separate tiles
that are already connected; treat each as its own tile for the
purposes of movement, counting tiles, and Monster/Villain AI
.


... to add to the confusion, both of those Monster AI's say "a Start Tile" not "the Start Tile" making it seem like each of the two connected tiles is a different Start Tile ... shake
 
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Frank Clarke
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The rules are full of such cheesy holes, so I would suggest the unwritten rule of "Always in favor of the Player".
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Alan Stewart
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redcometx wrote:
The Start tile: It’s twice the size of the
other tiles.

The Start Tile IS the start tile. It's twice as big as the other, regular, dungeon/cavern tiles (depends on which game you have). So in the two cases you cited, if the Flesh Golem or Young Vampire are ANYWHERE on THE START TILE, then the active player is going to take one damage. That part of the AI has NOTHING to do with movement or counting tiles.

There's some very basic rules for dealing with the rules for this game:

1) Read the rules carefully and EXACTLY as worded. Don't invent exceptions.

2) Choose in favour of the players.

3) Active player decides.
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Gabriel Conroy
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Actually I think the rules for this game are excellent. Most of the queries posted in this forum are due to people thinking for some reason that they must mean something other than what they actually say. Alan's three principles are spot on!
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Frank Clarke
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It's like deja vu all over again:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/566349/start-tile-1-block-co...

Alan's Three Principles. Sounds official to me . I shall refer to them as Gospel, when I am the Active player, at least.
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Brian Hargraves
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In mission 9, monsters escape the dungeon when on the "start tile'. Does that mean that they can escape when not specifically on the stairs?

From the replies above, it would seem that is the case, though thematically it seems weird since they would "warp out" before reaching the stairs.

I played that adventure where the "start tile" was just the stairs or else it wouldn't have made sense thematically.

However, I can see (at least mechanically) that the Flesh Golem and Young Vampire can activate that line in their AI on either "sub" tile of the "start tile".

All of the other rules in the game I take at completely face value and they do work perfectly.
 
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Chris Lawson
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Maybe it would help if you remember that monster movement uses an abstract model. The monsters do not move from square to square to get from A to B like the Heroes do. The game moves the monsters from tile to tile, they do not have to move around corners or squeeze through narrow passageways. You move a Monster to a specific square on a tile, usually a bone pile or adjacent to a Hero, how it gets there isn't covered in the rules and doesn't need to be as the movement is abstract.

In this case, the requirement is that the monster needs to be on the Start tile. It doesn't have to be on the stairs themselves, it just needs to be somewhere on the (double sized) tile. In many ways, the artwork on the tiles is just an abstract representation of a dungeon / cavern / castle. In terms of the rules, the stairs are just "fluff" to add visual flavour to the game.
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Brian Hargraves
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xris wrote:
Maybe it would help if you remember that monster movement uses an abstract model. The monsters do not move from square to square to get from A to B like the Heroes do. The game moves the monsters from tile to tile, they do not have to move around corners or squeeze through narrow passageways. You move a Monster to a specific square on a tile, usually a bone pile or adjacent to a Hero, how it gets there isn't covered in the rules and doesn't need to be as the movement is abstract.

In this case, the requirement is that the monster needs to be on the Start tile. It doesn't have to be on the stairs themselves, it just needs to be somewhere on the (double sized) tile. In many ways, the artwork on the tiles is just an abstract representation of a dungeon / cavern / castle. In terms of the rules, the stairs are just "fluff" to add visual flavour to the game.


OK - in a purely mechanical way I see what you mean and will play that way regarding how to interpret the "start tile" going forward. Monster movement has always completely made sense to me except where the "start tile" was concerned.

... and on the topic of the artwork on the tiles being fluff ... I'm interpreting the art of the stairs themselves (and art on all tiles) to be able to be stood on and walked through. I know WOC has officially acknowledged that coffin images can be stood on (so they don't block corridors). I'm interpreting that it also translates to the stairs, workbench, tables, etc. ... just not the black tile "walls".

Thanks for all the replies.
 
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Tor Sverre Lund
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EverywhereGames wrote:
redcometx wrote:
The Start tile: It’s twice the size of the
other tiles.

The Start Tile IS the start tile. It's twice as big as the other, regular, dungeon/cavern tiles (depends on which game you have). So in the two cases you cited, if the Flesh Golem or Young Vampire are ANYWHERE on THE START TILE, then the active player is going to take one damage. That part of the AI has NOTHING to do with movement or counting tiles.

There's some very basic rules for dealing with the rules for this game:

1) Read the rules carefully and EXACTLY as worded. Don't invent exceptions.

2) Choose in favour of the players.

3) Active player decides.


I think you've misunderstood here, or just need to take your own advice #1. "treat each as its own tile for the purposes of movement, counting tiles, and Monster/Villain AI." So if they're on different halves of the start tile piece, they are NOT on the same tile.
On page 3 of the rules, they have highlighted just one half of the start tile to give as an example of what A TILE is. On the same page, when counting tiles, again the start tile is shown to be two different tiles.
 
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Brian Hargraves
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I added in the "Monster/Villain AI" part in that post. It is not normally there in the rulebook, I was questioning if it should be added or not.

The others that have replied believe it shouldn't be added, and that Monster/Villain AI should treat the "start tile" as one big rectangle that sets off their AI when referencing "start tile".

In summation:

Movement = 2 separate tiles.
Counting Tiles = 2 separate tiles.
Monster AI = 1 big tile.

... is what I think people are agreeing on.
 
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Chris Lawson
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redcometx wrote:
In summation:

[...]
Monster AI = 1 big tile.

... is what I think people are agreeing on.

I'm not saying that, I'm not sure about others but I don't think they are saying that either.

I'm not sure what you imply by "Monster AI". To me, Monster AI is when you (as a player) determine what the monster does during it turn (e.g. who it attacks or where it moves). In those cases I think you treat the Start tile as two separate tiles, they do after all have bonepiles on both parts of the double tile.

As for Adv 9, I would say that if a monster is on either part of the Start tile, then at the end of the Villain Phase, it's removed and 1 HP token is removed from the Start tile. This is the only time I would say that you treat the Start tile as "1 big tile".

EDIT: Note, I also think that you aren't allowed to place a Hero (or monster) on the "stairs" of the Start tile. Models have to placed on an actual square and the stairs don't have squares on them. Mind, the coffins don't have squares on them (the artwork shows the coffin on a double sized space) but the FAQ does say that Heroes can move through them. What isn't clear is if Heroes can stop on a coffin space Actually, is the FAQ referring to coffins printed on tiles or is it referring to the Coffin tokens? I think I've played it that you can't move onto the printed coffin spaces (the coffin tokens are another matter).
 
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Brian Hargraves
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I think we are both agreeing, I'll clarify.

Movement (Heroes and Monsters) = 2 separate tiles.
Counting Tiles (any circumstance) = 2 separate tiles.
Any time the "Start Tile" is referenced in the rules, specific adventure, or villain card (outside of Movement and Counting Tiles) = 1 big tile.

Examples:

Mission 9: Monsters escape at the end of the villain phase if on the Start Tile.

Flesh Golem Card: If the Flesh Golem is on a Start Tile, the active hero takes one damage.

If the Young Vampire is on a Start Tile, the active hero takes one damage.


RE: Art on the tiles, this is from the official FAQ:

Coffins on Tiles: Coffins on tiles have no associated rules unless
otherwise specified by the adventure. Heroes can move freely through them just like any other square.


Not the coffin tokens ... the coffins on tiles... so that is why I'm thinking any other tile art is able to be moved through as well? Or again, taking this statement completely literally, is this specific to "coffin art" and not other tile art since they mention no other type of art in their answer?

EDIT: ... and I'm pretty sure they mean the "tile art" coffins or else they would have referred them to "Coffin Tokens" in the FAQ because that is what the component is called in the components section of the rulebook.
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Chris Lawson
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redcometx wrote:
I think we are both agreeing, I'll clarify.

Ah yes, we are agreeing

redcometx wrote:
RE: Art on the tiles, this is from the official FAQ:

Coffins on Tiles: Coffins on tiles have no associated rules unless
otherwise specified by the adventure. Heroes can move freely through them just like any other square.


Not the coffin tokens ... the coffins on tiles... so that is why I'm thinking any other tile art is able to be moved through as well? Or again, taking this statement completely literally, is this specific to "coffin art" and not other tile art since they mention no other type of art in their answer?

I think the FAQ is specifically talking about Coffin tokens, not coffin artwork on an existing tile.

It's not clear if it means "Coffin [tokens] on tiles..." or "Coffin [artwork] on tiles..." but my view is that since it references that they "have no associated rules unless otherwise specified by the adventure" then it must be talking about Coffin tokens.

There isn't any written reference to coffin artwork in any of the Adventures but there is reference to Coffin tokens in Adventure 13, I taken this to mean that the FAQ is only talking about the Coffin tokens.

Adv 13 tells you to place the Coffin token face down on the map, the FAQ is just reminding us that these tokens don't block movement or anything, they are just there to randomise where Strahd appears.

Adv 1 shows a tile with coffin artwork in the Adventure Setup but there is no mention that is has special significance as such. In fact, the diagram for that Adventure suggests that the coffin artwork does block movement since you may not place a Hero on the coffin artwork. Just like the Start tile, the diagram shows that the Coffin artwork isn't one of the blue squares a Hero can be placed on.

For me, this reinforces the idea that the Stairs (and the coffin artwork) isn't a valid square for movement purposes. All IMHO of course
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Brian Hargraves
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I'm think I'm going to read it a bit differently, where the "art" coffins and "art" stairs are able to be stood on.

Reasons:

1) The other tile art (besides coffins and stairs) you can see "squares" under ... so they can be stood on.

2) The FAQ generally mentions "coffins" so I'll take that to mean art and tokens.

3) When you cover a tile with a trap token ... it covers up the squares underneath (like coffin art and the stairs) and you are still able to walk across it and stop on it as if there were 4 squares under it.

4) It looks to me like the coffin art in Adventure 1 IS also blue like the rest of the squares. Putting the Strahd tile next to that page in the book, the one on the book definitely has a blue hue.

5) Allowing movement on these "art" spaces makes the game less complex, which is what I think is the ultimate intention of a "light" D&D adventure.

Thanks for the feedback and discussion.
 
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Frank Clarke
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Coffin Artwork:

If it blocks movement, then you are creating new rule issues.
 
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Gabriel Conroy
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I house rule that it costs an extra movement point to enter obstacle squares such as coffins. Monsters are unaffected except they can't be placed on a coffin square unless no others are free.

I could imagine adding rules for cover etc as well if I was using the line of sight variant.
 
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