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Subject: Does changing your facing cost your movement action? rss

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Dave Garcia
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When playing with the "Human View" difficulty, does it cost your movement to just change your direction of view?
For example: You are not currently facing an enemy and it's the start of your turn. Do you have to use your whole Movement action to turn and face the enemy to shoot? Or can you just quickly change direction, shoot at the enemy, and then execute your movement? Seems quite unfair to have to use your WHOLE movement just to point your gun in a different direction?
 
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Norwegian Singbird
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7.2 says: Note: If the "human view" rule is enabled, the player may freely rotate the agent figure to look in any direction at the end of his movement."

So yes, to me it means if you rotate in place you have ended your movement.

As for unfair... The whole point of the rule is to make the game more difficult. Using a difficulty rule and saying it's unfair seems silly. Just don't use the rule then. : )
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Dave Garcia
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Fair enough.
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Curtis Sutherland
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Singbird wrote:
7.2 says: Note: If the "human view" rule is enabled, the player may freely rotate the agent figure to look in any direction at the end of his movement."

So yes, to me it means if you rotate in place you have ended your movement.

As for unfair... The whole point of the rule is to make the game more difficult. Using a difficulty rule and saying it's unfair seems silly. Just don't use the rule then. : )


If this is the case, then if an alien engages you from behind, you can not attack him without evading first.

That seems wrong to me. Unless he has me in a rear naked choke maybe lol
 
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Jerry Tresman
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Stick up man wrote:
Singbird wrote:
7.2 says: Note: If the "human view" rule is enabled, the player may freely rotate the agent figure to look in any direction at the end of his movement."

So yes, to me it means if you rotate in place you have ended your movement.

As for unfair... The whole point of the rule is to make the game more difficult. Using a difficulty rule and saying it's unfair seems silly. Just don't use the rule then. : )


If this is the case, then if an alien engages you from behind, you can not attack him without evading first.

That seems wrong to me. Unless he has me in a rear naked choke maybe lol


Its all to do with time scale, each round is seconds not minutes, which is why you can be blind sided.
 
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Felipe Machado
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Stick up man wrote:
Singbird wrote:
7.2 says: Note: If the "human view" rule is enabled, the player may freely rotate the agent figure to look in any direction at the end of his movement."

So yes, to me it means if you rotate in place you have ended your movement.

As for unfair... The whole point of the rule is to make the game more difficult. Using a difficulty rule and saying it's unfair seems silly. Just don't use the rule then. : )


If this is the case, then if an alien engages you from behind, you can not attack him without evading first.

That seems wrong to me. Unless he has me in a rear naked choke maybe lol


That's not how I interpreted it.
If an alien engages the agent from behind, he/she has to spend his/her movement to rotate, and then attack.
 
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Curtis Sutherland
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The book says no movement, unless evade. You can not rotate until you end your movement. I agree with you, but the book does not.
 
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Felipe Machado
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Stick up man wrote:
The book says no movement, unless evade. You can not rotate until you end your movement. I agree with you, but the book does not.


Rulebook Page 22:
Quote:
ENGAGED IN COMBAT
...
Note: If the "Human View" rule is enabled, the player may freely rotate the agent figure to look in any direction at the end of his movement, even when ENGAGED in combat.


I always believed that this means that I can rotate my figure if I get engaged from behind.
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Curtis Sutherland
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I thought that meant if you move next to an alien, you could still rotate.

If you begin the turn engaged, how can you have an 'end' to your movement if you do not get a movement, due to being engaged?

I play that you can rotate even if engaged, you just can not move, but I thought I was using a house rule.

Good to know I was playing right all this time.
 
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Felipe Machado
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Stick up man wrote:
I thought that meant if you move next to an alien, you could still rotate.

If you begin the turn engaged, how can you have an 'end' to your movement if you do not get a movement, due to being engaged?

I play that you can rotate even if engaged, you just can not move, but I thought I was using a house rule.

Good to know I was playing right all this time.

Curtis, I'm not 100% sure if that's the right way to play... But that's how I always played.
Your way to look at this rule is plausible as well, so I'm in doubt now.

I've never seen Agent S talking about this rule... Maybe him or Skaak (that is present in almost every thread for this game ) can settle this one.
 
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Skaak
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Tchuli wrote:
I've never seen Agent S talking about this rule


I don't recall Agent S commenting on this anywhere, either. I've always interpreted the rules that Tchull quoted the same: if my agent gets engaged from behind, I'll rotate the agent to face the aliens before attacking.

I do consider the agent's movement to be "spent" at that point, even though it only resulted in a rotation. So even if the agent kills the alien, they aren't going anywhere this turn (and no rerolling failed hit dice for Iridium, unjamming a weapon, etc.).

I'm not sure if that's the official interpretation of the rules, but it seems to me like it offers the best balance between nastiness toward the agents (since they have to forfeit their movement, despite being able to face and engage their attacker) and simplicity for the alien AI (since if flanking an agent ensured that they would never be able to engage the alien, then in order to do the "best action for the aliens" you'd want to preferentially flank agents virtually always, and most of us prefer to let the aliens largely play themselves rather than needing to take tactical action against ourselves).
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Curtis Sutherland
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Skaak wrote:
Tchuli wrote:
I've never seen Agent S talking about this rule


I don't recall Agent S commenting on this anywhere, either. I've always interpreted the rules that Tchull quoted the same: if my agent gets engaged from behind, I'll rotate the agent to face the aliens before attacking.

I do consider the agent's movement to be "spent" at that point, even though it only resulted in a rotation. So even if the agent kills the alien, they aren't going anywhere this turn (and no rerolling failed hit dice for Iridium, unjamming a weapon, etc.).


I like the way you think. I was moving if I killed the alien, even after rotating that activation. I wont be doing that anymore.
 
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Skaak wrote:
Tchuli wrote:
I've never seen Agent S talking about this rule


I don't recall Agent S commenting on this anywhere, either. I've always interpreted the rules that Tchull quoted the same: if my agent gets engaged from behind, I'll rotate the agent to face the aliens before attacking.

I do consider the agent's movement to be "spent" at that point, even though it only resulted in a rotation. So even if the agent kills the alien, they aren't going anywhere this turn (and no rerolling failed hit dice for Iridium, unjamming a weapon, etc.).

I'm not sure if that's the official interpretation of the rules, but it seems to me like it offers the best balance between nastiness toward the agents (since they have to forfeit their movement, despite being able to face and engage their attacker) and simplicity for the alien AI (since if flanking an agent ensured that they would never be able to engage the alien, then in order to do the "best action for the aliens" you'd want to preferentially flank agents virtually always, and most of us prefer to let the aliens largely play themselves rather than needing to take tactical action against ourselves).


The rules are clear in this situation. At least from my reading and interpretation, it is exactly as Skaak said. Since rotation is done at the end of movement, if you do so, you are declaring that you are going to spend the movement part of your agent's turn doing nothing but rotate. If the rules tell us when we can do a certain activity, and doesn't mention being able to do said activity any other time, then it is safe to say that aforementioned activity can only be done during the time listed. Yes, there might be game elements that violate the rule, but those are exceptions to the rule, not modifications.

This is further supported by the fact that we have the new GD Glasses (in the wave 2 KS) that give an agent a 360 degree view (and +1 range).

...man, I can't wait to get these expansions...
 
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Makoto Nanaya
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Stick up man wrote:
Singbird wrote:
7.2 says: Note: If the "human view" rule is enabled, the player may freely rotate the agent figure to look in any direction at the end of his movement."

So yes, to me it means if you rotate in place you have ended your movement.

As for unfair... The whole point of the rule is to make the game more difficult. Using a difficulty rule and saying it's unfair seems silly. Just don't use the rule then. : )


If this is the case, then if an alien engages you from behind, you can not attack him without evading first.

That seems wrong to me. Unless he has me in a rear naked choke maybe lol


I agree that this makes the game more difficult, but I also believe that Jerry's original interpretation is the correct one.

As an example: my agent ends his movement. There is no adjacent alien.

I then play a close encounter card which brings an alien adjacent to me (standing directly behind my "human view."

The next time it is my turn (playing "human view"), I cannot turn to face the alien-and thus attack-unless I successfully evade. I understand the rules say the agent may turn to face any direction (even when engaged in combat) but the key words are "at the end of his movement." If I begin my turn engaged in combat (because an alien has moved behind me), I simply cannot turn to face (and thus attack) the alien because I cannot move to begin with.

Does anyone else understand it this way?

Three (somewhat) related questions:

1. An alien's line of sight (when it is attacking an agent) is always 360, right? You just need to be able to draw a straight line from its center hex to an agent's center hex. The direction the alien is facing is irrelevant. Is this correct?

2. If I begin my turn engaged in combat (and assuming my human view allows me to attack) but both of my weapons are jammed, I can use my action + movement to unjam one of them. And if I am successful, I can then attack with the unjammed weapon. Is this correct?

3. If I begin my turn with Biotech Agent Thorium engaged in combat and seriously wounded, I can use his Nanobot weapon to heal himself rather than use my Shotgun to inflict damage on the alien with whom I'm engaged. Is this correct? I mean, I think the key is that I am not moving, and I am using a weapon - it's just I'm using a weapon that heals myself rather than inflicting damage on the alien. Right?

Thank you.
 
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Skaak
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Makoto_Nanaya wrote:
Three (somewhat) related questions


You are correct for all three questions. The last one is really only a question if you are playing with the optional Close Encounter rule enabled, but even then I personally at least would play that the Biotech can still heal himself while engaged with an enemy (but I wouldn't allow him to heal any other agents while engaged).
 
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Skaak wrote:
Makoto_Nanaya wrote:
Three (somewhat) related questions


You are correct for all three questions. The last one is really only a question if you are playing with the optional Close Encounter rule enabled, but even then I personally at least would play that the Biotech can still heal himself while engaged with an enemy (but I wouldn't allow him to heal any other agents while engaged).


Ok, I admit to having not played this game in months. But what, in the rules, would prevent the biotech from healing others while engaged? This assumes that the target of the healing is also adjacent to the biotech, but not necessarily adjacent to the alien that has engaged the biotech.
 
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Skaak
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Hero_guy wrote:
But what, in the rules, would prevent the biotech from healing others while engaged?


Good point; I checked the rulebook again and I'd misremembered the wording. I was thinking that Close Fight exclusively allowed agents to target aliens who were engaged with them, but in fact it doesn't explicitly exclude targets that are not aliens:

Quote:
If enabled, an agent Engaged in melee combat may only attack aliens with which he is Engaged.


As such, I'm now thinking there's no restriction on who the Biotech can heal, whether he's engaged or not. If he's engaged with an alien with Close Fight on and wants to attack something, he'd have to attack the alien, but if he's healing someone he can target whoever is in range.
 
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Hmm...again I haven't played in a while, so I likely have forgotten something. But isn't healing just a modified attack? The only rule I remember it contradicting is that you can normally not target a friendly agent with an attack. If I am correct, then because there is no explicit language on other combat rules being contradicted, all other normal rules for combat would apply. Including the restriction of only being able to attack targets that are adjacent. If I am incorrect, then I ask that the mods on here redact this post so that I am not seen (once again) spouting off incorrect rules. laugh
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This exact situation came up in a game we played today, and we weren't sure how to proceed.

Has there been any official word on whether or not the biotec can heal another agent while engaged, when playing with the Close Fight rule?
 
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Warren Smith
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An official word would be nice, but my view is that since using the healing weapon is exactly the same as an attack except for the result, it should be restricted to only healing himself. Thematically, the alien is taking up all the Biotech's attention and he is concentrating on his own survival, not on any other considerations.
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You may call me
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wsmithjr wrote:
An official word would be nice, but my view is that since using the healing weapon is exactly the same as an attack except for the result, it should be restricted to only healing himself. Thematically, the alien is taking up all the Biotech's attention and he is concentrating on his own survival, not on any other considerations.


I agree.
 
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