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Subject: New stretch goals added rss

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cinos
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/funforge/zna/posts/1089...

SO much better now.
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Vasilis
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Yep. This is waaay better than before. Keeping my pledge.
 
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Jason Speicher
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My KS funds already went elsewhere and are saving up for games next year.
 
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Stefan Schneider
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The update still kindof make the think, I am backing the wrong game here... Will probably drop out, but will wait for some reviews.
But it looks awesome....
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Phil Christiansen
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Indeed, its an improvement to be sure. Nice to see them listening and responding.
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Justin Colm
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Quick response... but I think I already made my decision not to back this. Even leaving aside the issues with the campaign itself I've come to the conclusion that the game just doesn't really merit a purchase. It doesn't seem very original, or bringing much to the table I don't already have, I have no interest in the app whatsoever (not opposed to it; just not interested), and I don't really expect the miniatures to be particularly good. So I'm happy they've taken steps to begin rectifying this somewhat ill-conceived campaign but personally I've come to the conclusion it was somewhat over-hyped to begin with.
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King Maple
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New goals or not, these goals are all artificial. This campaign is bleeding backers already on the third day, total amount of backers is reducing more than increasing.

Seriously, I don't know why they are bullshitting the backers the way they do The stretch goals are artificial, especially the one that was about component upgrade. The cost of the game completely does not justify itself, even if you compare it to their own other Kickstarter that included more unique minis and more content for a lesser price.
 
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cinos
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Why do you think they are artificial, out of interest? Is it because they're not funded yet?
 
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King Maple
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cinos wrote:
Why do you think they are artificial, out of interest? Is it because they're not funded yet?


They are artificial since they are already done. There is no way that adding a single miniature costs so much, for example. They have already planned to create this miniature - they've already done the work, so the only thing that costs is the creation of the mold which, considering the first funding level, is already way, way too much.

These are all illusions. If the base game costs X amount to create for Y amount of backers, then it makes no sense why adding Z miniature and board costs almost as much as the creation of the entire game itself.

Same with component upgrades, these have become your typical 'default stretch goal', when a company like FunForge would never release anything but high quality components.

There was another campaign, New Bedford, that was recently canceled simply because it was full of artificial stretch goals and they realized they cannot produce the game for the 'honest' stretch goals they had set.

So FunForge is either simply milking with stretch goals, or does not intend to produce the game for the base level stretch goals if the game does not get a funding of 600k+ (leading to this campaign being canceled and restarted few months down the road).
 
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Philippe Nouhra
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Slashdoctor wrote:
They are artificial since they are already done. There is no way that adding a single miniature costs so much, for example. They have already planned to create this miniature - they've already done the work, so the only thing that costs is the creation of the mold which, considering the first funding level, is already way, way too much.

100% wrong.
These new SG are totally new, including (and to be done), new conception, tweak, design, print/sculpt/molded/injected, shipping, etc.
Your vision of conceiving a game component is just limited to 10% of the real work needed for it.
In fact, as we are not over-selling 4 minis for 40$ as what is usual in a lot of other well known KS campaigns, but are offering every SG which is unlocked to REWARD the backers, the more you win, the less we get.
I understand that this sounds incredible to you and to a lot of people who are so used to pay 10$ for one extra mini (holly crap! this is just for ONE mini!) but this is the absolute truth.
With all the new SG that we introduced yesterday, you get not less than 14 additional minis in the game for FREE, in any other campaign, this would have been AT LEAST 100$ extra-addons for which you would have the super privilege to get the right to give more money to the project creator... Come on, let's be serious and stop conveying wrong messages!

Slashdoctor wrote:

These are all illusions. If the base game costs X amount to create for Y amount of backers, then it makes no sense why adding Z miniature and board costs almost as much as the creation of the entire game itself.

Wow, strange maths!
Can you please explain to me how adding SG is doubling the game price, I am interested into getting the final result...
In fact I just cannot understand what you are taking about.
Are you talking about the final price? Well in this case it is the same as the original one for all backers as, once again, we are offering everything to them.
Are you talking about the production costs? Well in this case, please refer to my first point, this might help clarify some thoughts...
What is true however, is what I tried to explain just before, every new element is a full price. Did you noticed that we introduced for example 2 new game modes and 1 new scenario mechanics. I do not know how you conceive your games (if you are conceiving games whatsoever) but, here, at Funforge, we think that developing new gameplay elements requires a lot of work and THIS represents a certain cost, even if this suprises you... (nothing is just limited to create a mold...)

Slashdoctor wrote:

Same with component upgrades, these have become your typical 'default stretch goal', when a company like FunForge would never release anything but high quality components.

Well, in fact, the price was tailored without these quality elements (because, apart of the minis, EVERYONE seems to forget the rest of the components which is just 2x the size/amount of a Zombicide game for instance). But, you are right, we cannot afford to deliver games wich does not includes top notch components, that's the reason why we already decided to remove these SG to include them in the base game. You may have missed to check the update before posting your commment, which might explain this, please have a look at the KS page for more info.

Slashdoctor wrote:

There was another campaign, New Bedford, that was recently canceled simply because it was full of artificial stretch goals and they realized they cannot produce the game for the 'honest' stretch goals they had set.

Ok, well, once again before comparing, please double check our campaign and SG designs...

Slashdoctor wrote:

So FunForge is either simply milking with stretch goals, or does not intend to produce the game for the base level stretch goals if the game does not get a funding of 600k+ (leading to this campaign being canceled and restarted few months down the road).

Or, you may just being 100% wrong from start to end as we firmly intend to produce this game as long as it is funded and to include everything that would be unlocked as, you see, we just thought about the costs of everything the serious way (not the "let's compare with other campaign which have nothing to see neither in terms of components nor in terms of gameplay content").

Sorry if all of this sounds a bit harsh, at a certain time, I just simply cannot let the wrong comments and false analysis keep going on and being told as if they were pure truth when they are not.

Anyway, thanks for your interest in the campaign, I hope that I helped clarify some points there.
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King Maple
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Thank you for the reply, I am sure you're right

I lost faith in the campaign however, though I hope it will be a success for you and the company

All the best!
 
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Zheng Xuan
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Funforge wrote:
Slashdoctor wrote:
They are artificial since they are already done. There is no way that adding a single miniature costs so much, for example. They have already planned to create this miniature - they've already done the work, so the only thing that costs is the creation of the mold which, considering the first funding level, is already way, way too much.

100% wrong.
These new SG are totally new, including (and to be done), new conception, tweak, design, print/sculpt/molded/injected, shipping, etc.
Your vision of conceiving a game component is just limited to 10% of the real work needed for it.
In fact, as we are not over-selling 4 minis for 40$ as what is usual in a lot of other well known KS campaigns, but are offering every SG which is unlocked to REWARD the backers, the more you win, the less we get.
I understand that this sounds incredible to you and to a lot of people who are so used to pay 10$ for one extra mini (holly crap! this is just for ONE mini!) but this is the absolute truth.
With all the new SG that we introduced yesterday, you get not less than 14 additional minis in the game for FREE, in any other campaign, this would have been AT LEAST 100$ extra-addons for which you would have the super privilege to get the right to give more money to the project creator... Come on, let's be serious and stop conveying wrong messages!


Looking at the price of the game, the SGs have already been pre sold as part of the core game at 125, hence the ability to give them out for "free". You can't be seriously telling me you think your core game is worth 125 at the moment of funding. Slamming how others run the campaign is not the way to go trust me, just focus on running yours well.

P.S I find it funny how responsive you guys are when you are asking for funding. How about some response to the the tokaido collectors edition crowd from whom you have already collected the money? The PM have been delayed repeatedly without reasons or even any announcement, just multiple missed dates. Since delivery is scheduled for February, production has most likely already begun. Are we still able to add additional samurai copies to the PM as promised? I highly doubt you created extras just for people to add. not cool funforge, not cool.
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Brian C
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..is this the Myth crowd or something? Why so much pointless negativity. If you guys don't want to back the game, just don't back it.

But don't drag these guys through the mud when all they're trying to do is live the dream. And building board games can't be easy, or we'd have a ton of *great* board games to buy and play, when in reality very few are even able to hold our interest after a few plays.

In reality very few board games are actually worth a damn. Don't pile on the developers that maybe make a mistake, laud the ones that don't.

And when all else fails, be friendly to your godamn neighbor. You dang internet bullies.

*shakes cane*
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Raph Moimoi
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Hi Philippe,

glad to see you here. I totally agree with you about the way you look at the strech goals : they are free for everybody, there's no add-on SG that you have to pay for, so we cannot compare to a KS that has some SG that only makes another thing to buy.
These a are really 2 different ways to make a KS.

But you're missing something on the show a KS represents : there should be more keep up on the KS page, more life on the comments to create a community, nobody from FunForge answers for more than 24 hours : when you launch such a campaign, which has been followed on social networks, TricTrac and BGG, before the launch, you can't simply let it live (or die).

I asked some questions on the KS page that don't have answers for now, I hope you'll read them soon. Those are around the AR app ou want to make.
 
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Philippe Nouhra
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Hi Raph,

Thanks for your constructing comment (this brings some fresh air). ;)

I understand your point. As said in the comments and the update, we have a slightly different approach: we ARE reading everything, we just prefer to take our time (2-3 days) in order to analyze the inputs/questions and come with constructed answer, or better, proposal to make the campaign evolve.
To say the truth, we already have 3 new ideas that we are constructing and you'll definitely see new stuff by Monday or Tuesday (and I will forward this info on the comments sections of the KS too).
We ARE here, and we are reading everything, we are not just rushing answering. :)

Thanks again!
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King Maple
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But Philippe, you've got to admit that either this game is not new and innovative enough or the campaign is structured in a way that gives backers no faith that the stretch goals actually mean anything above the volume of production.

Last two days, ZNA has gotten less than 6k in backers money. Tokaido campaign had not a single day with less than 7k throughout the entire campaign. And Tokaido was a campaign that did reach 600k milestone. Tokaido campaign always felt like they are doing their best to add more to the campaign, such as the painted miniatures and new characters in absolute boatload. It was a thrilling campaign to take part of, possibly the best I've ever witnessed. To this day I bring an example of FunForge about a campaign that is absolutely well produced, even if it is hit by delays ♥
 
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cinos
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Slashdoctor wrote:
But Philippe, you've got to admit that either this game is not new and innovative enough or the campaign is structured in a way that gives backers no faith that the stretch goals actually mean anything above the volume of production.

Last two days, ZNA has gotten less than 6k in backers money. Tokaido campaign had not a single day with less than 7k throughout the entire campaign. And Tokaido was a campaign that did reach 600k milestone. Tokaido campaign always felt like they are doing their best to add more to the campaign, such as the painted miniatures and new characters in absolute boatload. It was a thrilling campaign to take part of, possibly the best I've ever witnessed. To this day I bring an example of FunForge about a campaign that is absolutely well produced, even if it is hit by delays ♥


You just made me feel even worse for missing that kickstarter. Didn't even know it was happening till after it had ended. Gutted to have missed it.

On current topic, while I understand Funforge's stance on wanting to issue well prepared answers. A 2-3 day gap just leaves the impression that people are being ignored. Constant communication is key, even if it's just a "we're preparing a response to this in the next few days".

And above all else, we need gameplay! There really is no reason to start a kickstarter campaign without it. If the video isn't ready, then delay the campaign a few days.
 
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King Maple
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cinos wrote:
Slashdoctor wrote:
But Philippe, you've got to admit that either this game is not new and innovative enough or the campaign is structured in a way that gives backers no faith that the stretch goals actually mean anything above the volume of production.

Last two days, ZNA has gotten less than 6k in backers money. Tokaido campaign had not a single day with less than 7k throughout the entire campaign. And Tokaido was a campaign that did reach 600k milestone. Tokaido campaign always felt like they are doing their best to add more to the campaign, such as the painted miniatures and new characters in absolute boatload. It was a thrilling campaign to take part of, possibly the best I've ever witnessed. To this day I bring an example of FunForge about a campaign that is absolutely well produced, even if it is hit by delays ♥


You just made me feel even worse for missing that kickstarter. Didn't even know it was happening till after it had ended. Gutted to have missed it.

On current topic, while I understand Funforge's stance on wanting to issue well prepared answers. A 2-3 day gap just leaves the impression that people are being ignored. Constant communication is key, even if it's just a "we're preparing a response to this in the next few days".

And above all else, we need gameplay! There really is no reason to start a kickstarter campaign without it. If the video isn't ready, then delay the campaign a few days.


If they make it possible to place a double order, then (since you're in the UK and shipping is cheaper there) I'll gladly help you get a copy (though you'd have to cover double-shipping in that case). Though rumors say that it won't be possible to get two copies of painted miniatures. Still, if non-painted version will be open, then I'll gladly help you
 
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cinos
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Very kind of you to offer, however I'm mainly gutted on missing out on those painted mini's.

Sadly, I just don't have the time anymore to do it myself, and already have a massive backlog thanks to Descent and Zombicide.

If the rumours prove unfounded however, and painted mini's are available in a double order then I may well have to start fishing around for a piggyback.
 
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Ewert Bellingan
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Agreed, the revised SGs is a great improvement in terms of the campaign.

However, game play wise it still doesn't bring any real uniqueness to the table and will therefore not see my dollars...
 
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Justin Colm
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Zexius wrote:
[q="Funforge"][q="Slashdoctor"]

Looking at the price of the game, the SGs have already been pre sold as part of the core game at 125, hence the ability to give them out for "free".


Of course they have. This is the thing I find irritating: Funforge seem to like taking shots at other publishers and other campaigns, for their supposed greed and sales tactics, and like to talk about their own 'transparency' but they're really not transparent at all. They're selling a product just like everybody else does... but they seem to think they're mavericks who have a better way of doing things. Clearly that belief is not being borne out.

Transparent would be saying: 'Guys this game is not worth $125, but we really want you all to pay this much so we can try and fund the app'. For all their lofty values I think that would be taking transparency a little too far for them...

Like I said above, I've decided against this game anyway, but I just don't like their hypocritical, holier than thou attitude whenever they talk about other publishers and projects.
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Olivier HASCOET
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Bonsoir Philippe,

Autant j'apprécie la démarche de transparence et d'écoute de la communauté (ajout de SG), autant je pense que le postulat de base consistant à dire tout est inclus pour un prix donné fixe est basé sur des hypothèses "ambitieuses". En effet, pour que le KS soit intéressant, il faut que celui-ci atteigne un certain nombre de SG. Hors hormis l'effet d'aubaine des early birds, il n'y a pas ou peu de croissance de backers, car à l'heure actuelle le contenu de la boite de base et jugé trop léger par rapport au prix du pledge.

Propositions :
- Le modèle de « no addon » semble montrer ses limites, pourquoi ne pas en rajouter ? Des options payantes (du genre peinture des figs) ?
- Ajouter des vidéos de gameplay afin de montrer en quoi ZNA est différent (ses plus "produit").
- Faire participer plus la communauté, vote pour des pledges, réponses à leur questions (immersion plus importante dans ce projet).


Ludiquement

Olivier
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