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Subject: Cube 112 cost 82 Points? rss

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Greg Millikin
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why is the Oversized Cube (Cube 112) labeled at a value of 82 Points?

The ship Value is always the ships Attack, Agility, Hull, & Shield all added together. That means the actual value would be 52...
The ship having 6 card upgrades is the only thing that is different from other ships. but that never mattered before & is not worth 30 points. Neither does the ships ability.

Why Would they do this?


Picture:
http://thatterigirl.tumblr.com/post/102399894343/as-promised...
 
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Bwian, just
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timescape wrote:

why is the Oversized Cube (Cube 112) labeled at a value of 82 Points?

The ship Value is always the ships Attack, Agility, Hull, & Shield all added together. That means the actual value would be 52...
The ship having 6 card upgrades is the only thing that is different from other ships. but that never mattered before & is not worth 30 points. Neither does the ships ability.

Why Would they do this?


Picture:
http://thatterigirl.tumblr.com/post/102399894343/as-promised...

Why wouldn't they do this? They should have done it a while ago, to be honest, but better late than never.
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David Griffin
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Yes, they should have been assessing points based on other things besides attributes for a while now but it really is the most blatant with the Borg. Not sure why they're doing it now but they ought to do it with the Cube, Sphere and Diamond.
 
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charles skrobis
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Honestly, I hate to say this, but even out to like 120 point matches, without the suggested format, it's unplayably bad in all things.

With the suggested format, there is no ship that lets it fit in the 90 points, so don't use blinds or you can't play it anyways.

But yeah, not worth the points, way too steep a cost. Use only in it's own scenario, casual play, or as a joke.
 
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Waspinator
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A lot of the Borg ships should have had this kind of point tax on them all along.
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I see it as being pretty nasty in its own scenario, and that's about it. I would have to assume that has to be the intent, as that's the only reason I can come up with for it: make it strong in its own scenario, but prohibitively expensive to be useful elsewhere.
 
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Sean Davis
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Not everything is about OP and tournaments, so the inability to fit Cube 112 into a tournament build is only marginally relevant. There are a lot of players out there, myself included, who have never played in any OP event, have no OP events anywhere nearby, and don't really care about the OP format.

From that perspective, in casual play, so far, the Borg have routinely demonstrated that they are far more capable than their points suggest. The Sphere outmatches any equally pointed ship, as do the Diamond and the Tac Cube. Given the massive base, which not only offers a lot of bumps, but even overlaps for action denial, plus very impressive movement capabilities, Cube 112 may well justify its points. It takes up a lot of real estate on the map, and mixing that with action denial cannot be a good thing for anyone trying to attack the Borg. Then again, it also may not be worth the points.

In any case, it is clear that the Cube is meant more for us fluff and thematic player. If you think he's worth the 7 SP, I guess there's Locutus in the box for the Tourney crowd, for a CS9 Borg Captain, but the main value in this box is for people that want a Borg ship that will properly dominate their tables. As for the Tourney crowd, I think that using the model would make the Collective and RiF OP events look a lot more interesting. Why use a cardboard token when you can put a cool looking model on the map to represent the Cube.

Remember: just because you can't use it in a tourney doesn't mean that its a bad ship. In the end, I suppose playtesting, alone, will define whether or not Cube 112 is worth its 82 points.
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Sutekh418 wrote:
Not everything is about OP and tournaments, ...


Um. What?
 
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Dave C
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Here follows a brief summary of the point formula related complaints:

Pre-Cube 112 - "The point formula is overly simplistic, fails to capture all the benefits for a ship--especially for Borg!--and is just overall dumb. Stupid Wizkids!"

Post Cube 112 - "I can't believe they did this! The cost of a ship is supposed to be Sum of Stats x 2, so why is this thing 82 points? Stupid Wizkids!"
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Leo Zappa
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Sutekh418 wrote:
Not everything is about OP and tournaments, so the inability to fit Cube 112 into a tournament build is only marginally relevant. There are a lot of players out there, myself included, who have never played in any OP event, have no OP events anywhere nearby, and don't really care about the OP format.

From that perspective, in casual play, so far, the Borg have routinely demonstrated that they are far more capable than their points suggest. The Sphere outmatches any equally pointed ship, as do the Diamond and the Tac Cube. Given the massive base, which not only offers a lot of bumps, but even overlaps for action denial, plus very impressive movement capabilities, Cube 112 may well justify its points. It takes up a lot of real estate on the map, and mixing that with action denial cannot be a good thing for anyone trying to attack the Borg. Then again, it also may not be worth the points.

In any case, it is clear that the Cube is meant more for us fluff and thematic player. If you think he's worth the 7 SP, I guess there's Locutus in the box for the Tourney crowd, for a CS9 Borg Captain, but the main value in this box is for people that want a Borg ship that will properly dominate their tables. As for the Tourney crowd, I think that using the model would make the Collective and RiF OP events look a lot more interesting. Why use a cardboard token when you can put a cool looking model on the map to represent the Cube.

Remember: just because you can't use it in a tourney doesn't mean that its a bad ship. In the end, I suppose playtesting, alone, will define whether or not Cube 112 is worth its 82 points.


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Nicolas Morin
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doomtwig wrote:
Sutekh418 wrote:
Not everything is about OP and tournaments, ...


Um. What?


Isn't it obvious? It's foremost a strategic board game that anyone can buy to play at home with family and friends. OP events are only a marketing/publicity stunt.
 
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Lord Kalte wrote:
doomtwig wrote:
Sutekh418 wrote:
Not everything is about OP and tournaments, ...


Um. What?


Isn't it obvious? It's foremost a strategic board game that anyone can buy to play at home with family and friends. OP events are only a marketing/publicity stunt.


Foremost to nuubs, maybe.

Let me soften that a bit. Put it this way: unless you're incognito, you have no idea what Wizkids's target or real consumer demographics are for this product. Absent, you know, actual knowledge, you and I are on equal footing as far as what we think this game is supposed to be. So, no, maybe it's something less than "obvious."

I'm not sure why you'd want to sell an unbalanced game to families, or to play one with your friends, unless you think to design well is too difficult or too costly. My entertainment dollar says a $15 product marketed through comic and game shops might be a little better designed, as far as organized play goes. I might be weird, but I can say that I taught my football-loving, never-seen-any-Trek college roommate to play, and when we were talking about point costs, he deduced the formula for ship stats straight off. Guy plays fantasy, what can I say?

Oh, and one other thing, I'm a huge fan of their willingness to get away from the formula. It absolutely was screwed up. Two things, though: haven't seen it anywhere else yet, and this ship isn't near 82-points good. So, yeah, I complain on both sides of the change. Why? Cuz willingness to change ain't the whole kit and kaboodle.
 
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Ken Zilla
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I opened my cube last night. The reason it's 82 points is the scenario. It's obvious this piece is basically only meant to be played in the Wolf 359 scenario that comes with it (or variations thereof), and that has balancing Mission Token mechanics. It's 150 point 3 ship Feds versus the single cube at 150 points. In the scenario the cube has unlimited Borg upgrade slots and Locutus, plus whatever else you can add from the upgrade bar. The mission tokens give the cube a LOT of power. It looks like a lot of fun and I can't wait to give it a whirl!
 
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Evan
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doomtwig wrote:
Two things, though: haven't seen it anywhere else yet


DS9. Fighters.
 
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Cool. 2 non-ships.
 
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Evan
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Oh dang, speak of the devil: 3 "non-ships"
 
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Allen Gould
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dprcooke wrote:
Here follows a brief summary of the point formula related complaints:

Pre-Cube 112 - "The point formula is overly simplistic, fails to capture all the benefits for a ship--especially for Borg!--and is just overall dumb. Stupid Wizkids!"

Post Cube 112 - "I can't believe they did this! The cost of a ship is supposed to be Sum of Stats x 2, so why is this thing 82 points? Stupid Wizkids!"


I think the dissonance is summed up as - why *now*? What has changed that suddenly, *this* particular ship gets the point penalty? Is it a change in policy? And in practical terms, they might as well cost it at 9001 points - why play this when you can go play the regular size cubes who don't have the penalty?

Personally, I think the penalty is for the multi-fire capability, but at first blush it does feel a bit excessive - I'd say "well, they must have playtested it", but we all know that didn't happen...

 
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Bob Anderson
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dprcooke wrote:
Here follows a brief summary of the point formula related complaints:

Pre-Cube 112 - "The point formula is overly simplistic, fails to capture all the benefits for a ship--especially for Borg!--and is just overall dumb. Stupid Wizkids!"

Post Cube 112 - "I can't believe they did this! The cost of a ship is supposed to be Sum of Stats x 2, so why is this thing 82 points? Stupid Wizkids!"


The break from the point cost formula provides me with a glimmer of hope that 2015 will see a formal 2.0 release of this game that comes with the new point formula provided on the oversized cube, and D&D attack wing.
 
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hesse honnolly
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dprcooke wrote:
Here follows a brief summary of the point formula related complaints:

Pre-Cube 112 - "The point formula is overly simplistic, fails to capture all the benefits for a ship--especially for Borg!--and is just overall dumb. Stupid Wizkids!"

Post Cube 112 - "I can't believe they did this! The cost of a ship is supposed to be Sum of Stats x 2, so why is this thing 82 points? Stupid Wizkids!"


But y change the formula, on a awesome, expensive piece. I bought mine and am super happy, but its almost useless for game play, except for maybe its overlap ability.
 
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pelmen78 wrote:
I opened my cube last night. The reason it's 82 points is the scenario. It's obvious this piece is basically only meant to be played in the Wolf 359 scenario that comes with it (or variations thereof), and that has balancing Mission Token mechanics. It's 150 point 3 ship Feds versus the single cube at 150 points. In the scenario the cube has unlimited Borg upgrade slots and Locutus, plus whatever else you can add from the upgrade bar. The mission tokens give the cube a LOT of power. It looks like a lot of fun and I can't wait to give it a whirl!


This is pretty much the purpose of the Cube. They are allowing it to be used in OP's, but its clear that its not really designed for that while it is designed for its own scenario (or similar).

Quote:
Foremost to nuubs, maybe.

Let me soften that a bit. Put it this way: unless you're incognito, you have no idea what Wizkids's target or real consumer demographics are for this product. Absent, you know, actual knowledge, you and I are on equal footing as far as what we think this game is supposed to be. So, no, maybe it's something less than "obvious."


Except he's right. OP's are only one way to play the game and in the grand scheme of things a very small one. I know its difficult to believe as regular posters on here, but not everyone who plays the game obsesses over what build to take to the OP every month!
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Except, no he's not. Most players are at least concerned with what the rules say. Bet they even look at the rulebook at least once.

In my area, several stores do a pretty brisk trade. I know a lot of the guys working in stores, and they tell me that the folks who are buying are the ones showing up to OPs.

See, I can do anecdotal evidence, too.
 
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You can think that all you want, but you are incorrect. OP participants are only a segment of the people who purchase and play Attack Wing. When you have the mindset of how important OPs are and you prepare for/go to them every month, its difficult to believe anything else (we always want to believe we represent what is normal in any situation), but that doesn't change the reality of the situation. So-called "casual" players outnumber t he event participants (as they do in any game). That's not an insult or a derogatory comment on either OPs or the game itself.

I like the events myself (I've attended enough that I have managed to win everything to-date), but I'm realistic about it. I know its not what most people are interested, and that focusing on the OPs as if they are the be-all and end-all of the game only obscures some very fun elements of the game.

Long story short, the cube is the perfect example of all this. Not everything has to be good in OPs. Its much more a thematic, or "casual," piece designed for its scenario or similar games for the non-OP participant.
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Can you at least admit that when you make such broad statements about the player base, you base your conclusions on personal observations, locally derived?
 
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doomtwig wrote:
Can you at least admit that when you make such broad statements about the player base, you base your conclusions on personal observations, locally derived?


No? This has been demonstrated for years across many different games. "Competitive" play, however you want to define it or call it in each instance, is only a segment of the overall group of players who purchase/play a game. It has absolutely nothing to do with the players of this game in my area, some of whom are very dedicated to going to multiple OPs every month (such as myself). I have not provided anything anecdotal, and I'm not going to, because it isn't relevant.

This exchange started because you bristled at the notion that the entire game didn't revolve around OPs. So much so that you felt it necessary to denigrate the poster who pointed that out (to quote you, "Foremost to nuubs, maybe."). It doesn't. Maybe for us, but not for many people (very few of whom you will find posting on BGG, most likely).
 
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I bristled at the idea that anybody posting here knows for sure what the consumer base is. When I made the assumption that the premises were anecdotal, I presumed you were drawing from experience; if your local group is not your source, then despite your confidence, I have no reason to believe the casual nature of the base beyond repeated demonstrations (of which I am not aware) which run counter to my own observations of this and other games (and, it seems, counter to yours). Yes, I have a different perspective. I do not assert that my claim is true. But, absent the weight of evidence, neither will I grant that any other is.

I was just trying to point out the absurdity of validating a design decision by asserting a target consumer when there's no way in hell anyone without survey data or inside information can know what the target really is. What's really being done is talk about what the game should be, or else what you want it to be (or else blatant logical error, obviously). These I understand, and even think are productive, but I think its important to acknowledge that they're based on little other than individual perspective.
 
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