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Dead of Winter: A Crossroads Game» Forums » General

Subject: Problem with traitor instawinning last turn rss

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James K
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So at of the 4 games we have played so far, randomly I have been the traitor twice and both time have been the last player to go on the last round. What this has ended up doing is I could play where I never put a bad card into the crisis deck (maybe withheld cards) and wait until the last turn where I could use all my survivors to attract noise and move a lot and try to get bitten so I could just make moral go to zero.

We have not played again after this last time. But unfortunately the new metagame will be to exile the last player on the last round so they can not do stuff like that. Pretty much making it so someone will probably just auto-lose by not being able to complete their new objective.

Anyone else had this problem?
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David Peck
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Pump up morale early on in the game.
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Brandon Alderman
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RomanLegion wrote:
... I could use all my survivors to attract noise and move a lot and try to get bitten so I could just make moral go to zero.


You may know this but each survivor may only move once.

Also there is a post from Jon the designer somewhere that you can only use attract zombies if there is two spaces available for them. So you couldn't force an overrun if there was only one space at that location. However once the add zombies phase happened it would obviously overrun if there was still a survivor there.
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Jim McMahon
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RomanLegion wrote:
the new metagame will be to exile the last player on the last round so they can not do stuff like that.

Which will then help the next-to-last-palyer when that player is the traitor.
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James K
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Yes, but we were playing a long mission last time, so almost everyone had between 3-6 survivors if I remember. I believe both times this happened I have randomly had the most survivors as well as being last.

So in that case I just move my highest ranked guy into the base where he is safe and then force the crisis to fail by dumping enough cards I don't need. Having other character move around trying to get bitten, or attract zombies to where someone is sitting and then leave so they will die since the area is full. or sacrifice my own survivors. and use up food. or do a search and max noise. It is not hard when you have a lot of survivors. I think I made the morale drop 2 more than needed to get to zero (I think we were around 4). (this was a long mission so we got most of the search decks pretty low).

Anyways it just felt very "gamy" and unfun way to win.
 
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Dan Licata
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Why would you call this an instawin? Yes potentially the traitor can win when he goes last in a round, but he has a lot to accomplish before that. he has to complete his secret objective and try to get morale to drop by either sabotaging a crisis or steering other players to non optimal choices.

Yes the traitor can have an easier time, especially with new players that don't know how to manage the game well yet. But it's hardly an instawin. Remember the traitor objectives are usually much harder.
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JonnyRotten
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That is a lot of survivors, just checking, are you guys playing the outsider cards as soon as you draw them, automatically? Or are you putting them in your hand like a normal item, and then playing them if you want?
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Ryan M
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If a betrayor can get to the very end of the game and complete their objective, why shouldn't they be able to win? It is the other players faults for not spotting or suspecting you sooner regardless of whether or not you put bad cards in the crisis.

I don't think it is gamey at all. It's thematic and the role of the betrayor.
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James K
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jgilmour wrote:
That is a lot of survivors, just checking, are you guys playing the outsider cards as soon as you draw them, automatically? Or are you putting them in your hand like a normal item, and then playing them if you want?


We have been playing them as soon as we draw them, is this wrong? it seemed at least thematically correct.

Mools wrote:
If a betrayor can get to the very end of the game and complete their objective, why shouldn't they be able to win? It is the other players faults for not spotting or suspecting you sooner regardless of whether or not you put bad cards in the crisis.

I don't think it is gamey at all. It's thematic and the role of the betrayor.


That is my point, if no one is obviously the betrayer do you just have to exile the last person in turn order so you have a better chance of winning as a whole but ruin any chance of that person completing their objective.
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Dan Licata
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RomanLegion wrote:


We have been playing them as soon as we draw them, is this wrong? it seemed at least thematically correct.


You MAY play them as soon as you get them but you don't have too. In a lot of cases you won't want to as it makes everything in the game harder and the traitors job a lot easier. It's also a good way to sniff out a betrayer but be warned there is an non-betrayer objective that people would want to play these.


RomanLegion wrote:

That is my point, if no one is obviously the betrayer do you just have to exile the last person in turn order so you have a better chance of winning as a whole but ruin any chance of that person completing their objective.



You don't want to just exile the last person in turn order either, that changes during the course of the game and you may make it easier for the betrayer if he wasn't last (as pointed out above). What you want to do is make winning hard for the betrayer by not losing morale, also try to figure out if/who the betrayer is. You should be very paranoid playing this game
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Jim McMahon
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RomanLegion wrote:
jgilmour wrote:
That is a lot of survivors, just checking, are you guys playing the outsider cards as soon as you draw them, automatically? Or are you putting them in your hand like a normal item, and then playing them if you want?


We have been playing them as soon as we draw them, is this wrong? it seemed at least thematically correct.
When you draw a survivor card, it is just like any other card, in that it goes into your hand and can be played when chosen. You may give it to another player, or not play it at all. The reason it says "Event" on the card is because it doesn't go into the Waste pile when played.
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JonnyRotten
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I've found the Event cards are one of the most overlooked rules, and can give people a really bad experience. It slows the game down, and also makes it harder.

But yes, you add them to your hand like any other card, and can play it, request them, and give them to a request.
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Jim McMahon
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danlicata wrote:
You don't want to just exile the last person in turn order either, that changes during the course of the game and you may make it easier for the betrayer if he wasn't last (as pointed out above).

Also, as mentioned, are you adjusting the Start Player every turn?
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James K
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jgilmour wrote:
I've found the Event cards are one of the most overlooked rules, and can give people a really bad experience. It slows the game down, and also makes it harder.

But yes, you add them to your hand like any other card, and can play it, request them, and give them to a request.


Ok, that could definitely change how the game is played with more cards to through into a crisis and also if someone has a ton of survivors something is up.

jimmcmahon wrote:
danlicata wrote:
You don't want to just exile the last person in turn order either, that changes during the course of the game and you may make it easier for the betrayer if he wasn't last (as pointed out above).

Also, as mentioned, are you adjusting the Start Player every turn?


Yes we are rotating start player. I guess I wasn't clear above. I mean you can calculate when you are going to be the last player for the round and it just so happened the last round the betrayers was also the last player--twice.
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Nate Bivins

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I love this game.

And it sounds like the OP got some rules wrong that may have made his experience with DoW a little harsh.

However, in my experience with this game, this is absolutely an issue with the game. Yes, you can do some things to mitigate it, yes you can metagame it. Yes, it's still tons of fun. It's still an issue.

It's a traitor game in which the traitor isn't really required to act like a traitor until a stage of the game in which the non-traitors can do nothing about it, and the traitor can still win. I'd prefer that if the traitor plays too much like a non-traitor, they'll lose. We've had traitors win several games through no credit of their own. They collected cards, and waited, did as little as possible and when morale hit 0, they won. I've also had several games similar to the OP's, where the traitor goes last and wins last turn.

This has been discussed quite a bit here so far, so it sounds like you have a few rules to review, but ultimately your concern is valid.
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Joel Carson
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Sounds like you played Eight/Ten Weeks of Winter, which guarantees a final round where the traitor will know they get the last move.

Yes, being the last player on the last turn and the traitor is a powerful position. Same with last player on the second to last turn. If the traitor is so lucky as to have this spot, power to them. But, since starting player is semi-randomly assigned, you can't always guarantee that spot, and most scenarios don't have a specific end round.

If you feel the way you won was unfair, how would you WANT to win as the betrayer?
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Dan Licata
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slackerb wrote:
I love this game.

And it sounds like the OP got some rules wrong that may have made his experience with DoW a little harsh.

However, in my experience with this game, this is absolutely an issue with the game. Yes, you can do some things to mitigate it, yes you can metagame it. Yes, it's still tons of fun. It's still an issue.

It's a traitor game in which the traitor isn't really required to act like a traitor until a stage of the game in which the non-traitors can do nothing about it, and the traitor can still win. I'd prefer that if the traitor plays too much like a non-traitor, they'll lose. We've had traitors win several games through no credit of their own. They collected cards, and waited, did as little as possible and when morale hit 0, they won. I've also had several games similar to the OP's, where the traitor goes last and wins last turn.

This has been discussed quite a bit here so far, so it sounds like you have a few rules to review, but ultimately your concern is valid.


I think this will be less of an issue when your group learns to better manage the game, as you stop losing morale, learn to earn morale etc. That will make it harder for the traitor and he'll have to step up his game. Plus the traitor shouldn't be doing anything obvious but you can get an idea about some players actions.
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Nate Bivins

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I'd want to win by subtly and cleverly deceiving them throughout the length of the game, nudging things in my favor all while fooling them into trusting me. I'd want them to have to make a tough decision on who to trust and choose me over someone else, maybe even exiling someone innocent because of my duplicitous schemes. I'd want to affect the outcome of the game such that if I don't play well, I'd likely lose, and if I played well, I'd likely win.

This game does a lot of things better than almost all games, and it has some very clever design, but the traitor part of the game isn't it's strong suit in my opinion.
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JonnyRotten
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One of our goals was to not railroad the betrayer into having to do things in the way that they are done in many other games. Just like other facets of the game, we present a betrayer with lots of opportunities to do things that are beneficial to him.

Crossroad card to add more helpless to the colony and tax the groups resources? I should probably try to convince the group to vote it through.

Crisis that to wipe out our barricades? I may want to spike this one?

Second food Crisis in a row, I should convince everyone to go extra on it
and raise morale because I think Jim's the betrayer. Then I'll just toss one bad card out of two in so we don't get the morale.

Another Outsider card? Don't mind if I do.

If the betrayer had to play the same way every time, and we forced them to do the same things every game, they would be easier to find. Instead we gave them freedom within the system. We wanted to do something a bit unique with it.

Believe me there is quite a bit of depth, and I'm still seeing new betrayer moves come out that I haven't seen before. My group has gotten good at picking up on suspicious behavior. Sometimes we exile the wrong person, but you have to break some eggs to make an omelet.
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Jim McMahon
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jgilmour wrote:
Second food Crisis in a row, I should convince everyone to go extra on it and raise morale because I think Jim's the betrayer.

Why do you always think I'm the betrayer? *sigh*
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Ossian Grr aka "Josh"
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Jim McMahon wrote:
Why do you always think I'm the betrayer? *sigh*


Yeah, he didn't come here looking for trouble.

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jimmcmahon wrote:
jgilmour wrote:
Second food Crisis in a row, I should convince everyone to go extra on it and raise morale because I think Jim's the betrayer.

Why do you always think I'm the betrayer? *sigh*


Five survivors?! You don't need 5 survivors! You just sit at the Police station searching! I vote to exile Jim!
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Jim McMahon
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jgilmour wrote:
jimmcmahon wrote:
jgilmour wrote:
Second food Crisis in a row, I should convince everyone to go extra on it and raise morale because I think Jim's the betrayer.

Why do you always think I'm the betrayer? *sigh*


Five survivors?! You don't need 5 survivors! You just sit at the Police station searching! I vote to exile Jim!

I'm not leaving until I get a good gun! Besides, we need the stuff here for the crisis! Why would you want to exile the guy who is trying to help with the crisis, hmmmm?

And I didn't know that you could keep the survivors in your hand when you drew them...
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JonnyRotten
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jimmcmahon wrote:
jgilmour wrote:
jimmcmahon wrote:
jgilmour wrote:
Second food Crisis in a row, I should convince everyone to go extra on it and raise morale because I think Jim's the betrayer.

Why do you always think I'm the betrayer? *sigh*


Five survivors?! You don't need 5 survivors! You just sit at the Police station searching! I vote to exile Jim!

I'm not leaving until I get a good gun! Besides, we need the stuff here for the crisis! Why would you want to exile the guy who is trying to help with the crisis, hmmmm?

And I didn't know that you could keep the survivors in your hand when you drew them...


Sure you didn't that is EXACTLY the excuse a betrayer would use. Try to play it away as an innocent mistake. And what about that Police station card in the crisis that failed? Whats the reason for that? You didn't know you couldn't throw gas in when we needed food? You thought we could eat the gas?
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Dan Licata
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Gosh I love this game.
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