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Subject: 4 new heroes added to base game, and now possible to play with 1-6 heroes. rss

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cinos
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/funforge/zna/posts/1091...

It's quite exciting seeing a project change like this, based on community feedback. Communication could still do with going up a notch, but the overall deal is getting better and better with every update.

Looking forward to seeing what else is in store.
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Stefan Schneider
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this update acutally finally made me drop my pledge.

"We are still working on the videos but this takes more time than awaited, plus the rework of some flaws of the game (as asked by the community) leads to some modifications and fixes"

That really sounds like they are just trying stuff out and that means its not playtested at all or at least not much. "we found a way to get rid of the 4 characters mandatory presence"? They should have thought about that right from the start, along with a more structured and reasonable campaign.
If that just now crossed their mind, that doesn't inspire much confidence.

I'll keep an eye on the campaign and if its successful, I'll wait for the game to be released and hope to get it for much less than they are asking for now. It's still just too expensive for me.

But I really do wish them luck and hope they make a great game. I will defenitly buy it then, after its released.
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Gergo Tothmihaly
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After all, this is crowd funding, not pre-order.
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Seriously, if this is a properly designed game with actual rules, how does one suddenly notice (on day 6 of a presale campaign) that it is possible to play with a number of characters that isn't 4.
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James Derbyshire
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cinos wrote:
It's quite worrying seeing a project change like this
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^...^ ALIEN ^...^
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Mcqueeney
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"Grasping at straws"...so glad I dropped my pledge.
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Johan Haglert
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tmgergo wrote:
After all, this is crowd funding, not pre-order.
K

As if paying $125/$140 to help make a board-game would seem reasonable.
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cinos
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Norbert666 wrote:
cinos wrote:
It's quite worrying seeing a project change like this


Why is it worrying? They added 4 new characters and announced plans to balance the existing scenarios for 1-6 characters. With it already balanced for 4, it's not exactly a massive departure to balance accordingly.

Granted I'm also still not sold on the game, but they have 24 days to sell the idea, and it can't be said that they're not trying to undo the mistakes they made at the start of the campaign.
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Gergo Tothmihaly
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eldaec wrote:
Seriously, if this is a properly designed game with actual rules, how does one suddenly notice (on day 6 of a presale campaign) that it is possible to play with a number of characters that isn't 4.
I think they've never stated that this is a finished design with final rules, quite the opposite, they said from the get-go that the campaign will help them finish the game.
And again this is not a presale campaign. I know, everyone treats KS as a pre-order system now, but it's not.

aliquis wrote:
As if paying $125/$140 to help make a board-game would seem reasonable.
As you wrote: you are not paying for the board game, but for making a board game. If you add the creative process and all what's around it to the cardboard and plastic, well, all can decide if it's reasonable.
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Kelly N.
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tmgergo wrote:
I think they've never stated that this is a finished design with final rules, quite the opposite, they said from the get-go that the campaign will help them finish the game.
And again this is not a presale campaign. I know, everyone treats KS as a pre-order system now, but it's not.


But it should be. Game design is NOT part of the KS process, funding the manufacturing is. I am not going to spend $100+ for someone to hear my suggestions for game improvements. It should be fully developed and play tested before asking for money to fund production.

tmgergo wrote:
As you wrote: you are not paying for the board game, but for making a board game. If you add the creative process and all what's around it to the cardboard and plastic, well, all can decide if it's reasonable.


The creative process is not part of a backer's consideration in spending money. The finished design should be presented to the backer. The backer then decides if his/her hard earned money should be pledged to help the designers get the game produced.

IMHO
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Gergo Tothmihaly
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sabbat00 wrote:
But it should be. Game design is NOT part of the KS process, funding the manufacturing is.
No. Crowd funding is about 'selling' an idea to the crowd, who will hopefully like the idea and back it.
The more mature the project is, the better. Of course.

You say you want to pay for manufacturing only. What about a video game project? Do you expect the game to be ready at campaign start and want to pay for the bandwidth only that is needed to download the game?

As I already said, KS is not a pre-order service. It's crowd funding. And crowd funding is not about paying for cardboard and plastic.
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Kelly N.
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I guess we must disagree then.

Present to me a product that needs help funding the marketing and production of a well developed idea, and if I like what you have designed I will back it it.

Present to me a half-baked idea that needs a whole lot of input from players across the globe to make it a very good game, then I cannot, and will not, spend my money on doing your game design/development for you. If this is the case, I could just create an enticing game title/theme and let you all fill in the mechanics for me.
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Gergo Tothmihaly
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Yeah, let's agree to disagree then.
You continue pre-ordering interesting designs, I continue backing interesting ideas.
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James Derbyshire
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If I was to go to a bank for a business loan and say: "I've got a great idea, I am going to start a business selling things. I'm not sure what those things are yet, nor who the market is or whether it'll be online or store-based. I'm not sure how much they cost yet either." They'll send me on my way. (Basically a half baked idea)

If I go to the bank and say: "I've got a great idea for a business" and proceed tell them the ins and outs, the research I've done, the market, the costs, the location of the store etc. They will listen to me. (A full understanding of what I want to do/produce)

The idea is free. It does not need Crowdfunding. It should be 99% there. The Crowdfunding is to turn the idea into reality. Production. That is what the funding goal is - the cost of producing. How can there be a funding goal if you haven't got an actual idea of what you are producing? Or is it just some tiles with art and some plastic pieces and we'll come up with a game afterwards?
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Philippe Nouhra
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Well, in the end, no matter what you are backing here (an idea or a pre-order) as the idea is here. It is the way we shaped scenarios with that we adapted to the crowd's demand that was adapted.
We didn't change the rule set or the core mechanics at all, we just "expand" the way we use it, as stated in the update.

I understand that this might sounds confusing and I apologize if you perceived it this way, we may probably should have emphasize more on this side but rest assured that this is not a half baked idea which changes as per people say, however we DO change the way the game is actually tweaked and balanced to what people's would want to see in the game.
We think that this is the way a crowd funding campaign should go: not being blind or deaf to the community's demands, as long as they are realistic and doesn't break anything.

I am not saying that this will be done in a wink, of course this will ask for scenario testing, tweaking and correct balancing, but I am saying that we didn't break anything because it was not working.

Thanks for your understanding.
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Kelly N.
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@Philippe - that is good to hear. It makes the process much more agreeable, and much less concerning.
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James Derbyshire
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Funforge wrote:
Well, in the end, no matter what you are backing here (an idea or a pre-order) as the idea is here. It is the way we shaped scenarios with that we adapted to the crowd's demand that was adapted.
We didn't change the rule set or the core mechanics at all, we just "expand" the way we use it, as stated in the update.

I understand that this might sounds confusing and I apologize if you perceived it this way, we may probably should have emphasize more on this side but rest assured that this is not a half baked idea which changes as per people say, however we DO change the way the game is actually tweaked and balanced to what people's would want to see in the game.
We think that this is the way a crowd funding campaign should go: not being blind or deaf to the community's demands, as long as they are realistic and doesn't break anything.

I am not saying that this will be done in a wink, of course this will ask for scenario testing, tweaking and correct balancing, but I am saying that we didn't break anything because it was not working.

Thanks for your understanding.


Thanks. I am happy with that explanation. My response above was to the suggestion that crowdfunding does not require a fleshed-out idea and is there to help develop that idea.
 
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Philippe Nouhra
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No problem, I understand anyway that people's visions of the project they are backing might be different, there is no problem with that as far as I'm concerned. :)

To explain a bit more my previous message, we are using a set of rules and numbers to balance the scenarios. In this set are the heroes starting points, the enemies spawn points and potential spawn rhythm, the items spreading on the map (linked to our crafting system), the exit points, the fog levels and evolutions of this level and, of course, the amount of terrain tiles and geometry.

As per now, we were using a linear application of these data to create 4 players (and characters) scenarios which were balanced, tested and flawlessly working.
Looking at the repeated demand of being able to play with more players (5 or 6) and to be able to get rid of the 4 characters mandatory per scenario, we decided to adapt the scenarios to these new configurations.
This means creating building rules for 1 to 6 characters (heroes) with other data tweaks according to this entry constraint.

Logically speaking, this is fairly easy using the set of rules and it works without problems, the thing is that it will lead us to much more work in terms of scenario building and tweaking in order to get to flawlessly working configurations. This is not a big deal, just a quite important amount of our time work to add to the actual pile of work. :)

To illustrate the fact that we didn't break anything, the 4 players configuration won't be touched at all, we will create new number of players configurations however. :)

Hope this helps clarifying the changes/addition.
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Ewert Bellingan
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Funforge wrote:
...the items spreading on the map (linked to our crafting system)...


I'd like to see more development with regards to this crafting system you keep referring to because from what I've read in your summarized rules there is not really much of a system there... I mean, seriously, yellow does this in different quantities, blue does that and green that and you can get green by mixing yellow and blue? That's basically what kids do playing with clay in kindergarten. yuk
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Philippe Nouhra
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No it goes beyond these basic notions.
We will post an update regarding the crafting system as we realize that speaking only about chemistry was not enough to properly present the crafting system.
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tmgergo wrote:
Yeah, let's agree to disagree then.
You continue pre-ordering interesting designs, I continue backing interesting ideas.


I would be able to see where you are coming from if there was even an idea here beyond 'zombicide with an app for some reason'. At $125 I doubt I'd agree, but I would be able to see your point.

 
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Ewert Bellingan
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Funforge wrote:
No it goes beyond these basic notions.
We will post an update regarding the crafting system as we realize that speaking only about chemistry was not enough to properly present the crafting system.


Looking forward to it. This crafting system talk was probably the main thing that piqued my interest in the game. My imagination actually went into speculation overdrive with ideas of how it might be implemented, i.e. transparent card overlays (Gloom influence after watching the TableTop episode) that change stats when 'hacking' new substances, etc. To say I was disappointed when I read the chemistry bit in the rules is an understatement...
 
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Philipp Ottensamer
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Funforge wrote:
No it goes beyond these basic notions.
We will post an update regarding the crafting system as we realize that speaking only about chemistry was not enough to properly present the crafting system.


You have a great idea on your hands, Philippe. Just develop the game a bit more and finish the app - dont make it a strech-tie-in - and I'm sure this will be a great success.
 
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