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1830: Railways & Robber Barons» Forums » Variants

Subject: 13= 1830-1817 rss

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Andreas Brueckner
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Given that 1817 is hard to find, anyone ever thought to play 1830 with the 17 rules?

short sales and loans seem easy to implememnt.
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J C Lawrence
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Not enough companies. 1817 is not just shorts and loans. Among other details 1817 has 20 companies and it is fairly common that at one or more points in the game all 20 float -- and this is critical to the flow and structure of the game. Similarly the tile upgrade path is quite open, both in character and because 1817 uses Lawson track, and 1830's is curvilinear and tight. Related to this would be the handling of dits and thus the handling of privates in general...and so on.

If you want to play 1817, just get a copy of 1817 and play that.
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Remi
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1817 is not hard to find anymore. (but it stays expensive)
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1208455/1817-now-printed...

https://sites.google.com/site/aagamesllc/home/bartell-flower...
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Andreas Brueckner
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I stand corrected on the hard to find. Expensive it is. Now I really like the loan mechanism in 1817. And there has been a loan variant for 1830 in the past already. Now if one would want to carry over the loan mechanism of 1817 to 1830, what would be a good number of available loans? Given the smaller number of companies a reduced number might be a good idea total as well as per row.

I have orderd a 1817 but it may yet need some time to get to me. In addition I mainly play 1830 with my underaged sons, 8 and 9 years old, hence the totality of financial options 1817 offers might be to much. They are pretty ok in playing 1830 already so it might be nice to turn up the complexity in small increments.

Any advice on how to port loans to 1830?

Happy seasonal holidays.
 
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J C Lawrence
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To all intents and purposes 1830 already has loans, except they're called "privates".

Structurally, loans provide inflation by injecting capital into the game, which is exactly what the privates already do in 1830, except that in 1830 the additional money is sourced from the 40% inflation inherent to floating a company (full capitalisation), with the privates-aka-loans relocating that capital from corporate to private hands. 1817 by contrast is a incremental capitalisation game (so no 40% magnification on float) which doesn't have grossly saleable privates (so no gross inflation there), and so implements loans and shorts (both) in order to provide for its aggressive bursts of inflation. And like the post-private-sale train-rush of 1830 (first diesel bought in OR3.2?), 1817 can have rather fast inflation -- from the middle of the 3Ts all the way through to the 8Ts in 1.5ORs is not unheard of.

Now 1817's loans are not as good an inflationary system as 1830's privates (the shorts pick up the rest of the slack and more), so its not just a matter of tossing out 1830's privates and substituting loans. Additionally 1817's loan interest payments work because it is both an incremental capitalisation game (so dividends from shares in the treasury can cover interest payments), and the game supports half-pays to cover all those intermediate gaps. 1830 has neither the dividends from treasury shares or half pays.

Now you could cover up the lack of treasury shares paying in by putting all shares in the pool. That way they'd pay to treasury to help cover loan interest. Of course that means everything sells for market, so no more par prices. And, nicely enough, all those dividends paying in are another (significant) inflationary system to help offset what you're about to lose from nerfing the privates...because you're going to need to nerf (buy in for no more than face value?) or simply discard the M&H and C&A from the game as they already provide all the inflation needed by the game.

Okay, so nerfed privates, no IPO and added loans. Interest-rate? Toughie. Even with a 5% step every two loans they reman a non-decision. Of course you take loans, and lots and lots of them, pretty much as fast as you can up to around 50% interest. The only question is which player can get take loans fastest? Like 1817, it means that the game is a race to the bottom...and the non-decisions driving that are already not interesting. Any good developer would develop out the no-decision loans and just give the players that money...

And then? Well, the train prices and numbers will need adjusting. Probably terrain costs too. And then the stock-market rules don't really work any more -- with no pars, how does a company capitalise if its price is pounded down before it floats? And how and when must loans be covered? And does taking loans have any effect on stock prices?

Or you could just get 1817...
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Andreas Brueckner
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thanks for the long and thoughful explanations. Now we usually play 1830 with the Westpark Gamers variant, that has incremental capitalisation, treasury stocks and half dividents. All work pretty nice together as far as I can see (that is comparing it to all the games I played with my old AH copy back in the nineties). And it seems to work pretty well for me and my kids, as it does for others.

Now I would agree that the incremental capitalisaation of the Westpark Variant takes some inflation out of the game. Hence using loans might offset this to some degree.

Now your points on different approaches to provide inflation is a good one. I am wondering though, if a 50% loan is a no-brainer for a company after all. I will have to try though.

One could argue that this is no longer 1830 in its pure form ...

For shorts and the other finacial instruments I have to wait till my order of 1817 comes through. Have ordered it a couple of weeks ago in the slow production version from deep thought games. Now given that my kids are still under 10 that should give them some time to mature with 1830 and 1835.

All this said, again thanks for the quick reply, much appreciated and very helpful.
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Eric Brosius
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millenium_baby wrote:
One could argue that this is no longer 1830 in its pure form ...

"1830 in its pure form" is like "the English language in its pure form" or "Spam in its pure form".
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J C Lawrence
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millenium_baby wrote:
Now I would agree that the incremental capitalisaation of the Westpark Variant takes some inflation out of the game. Hence using loans might offset this to some degree.


Yeah, but its a mixed bag. Incremental capitalisation loses the immediate 40% inflation on floating, but also adds inflation with unbought shares paying to treasury, plus the increased capital available on later purchases plus stock issuance. My sense is that the net is only slightly lower due to the depressed stock prices from issuance, but that seems a small thing.

(The Westpark variant also seems prone to abuse with the priority player issuing his company into the brown, immediately followed by buying up 100% of a nice cheap company chock full of nice new trains -- thus it seems like every Westpark-1830 game would always be a yellow fever game)

Quote:
Now your points on different approaches to provide inflation is a good one. I am wondering though, if a 50% loan is a no-brainer for a company after all. I will have to try though.


My figure is that somewhere between 40% and 60% it becomes unreasonable, but that the edge is quite soft and varies heavily by the game stage. That said, if the money from loans is $free enough, then even 70% is still worth it: all you have to do is beat your opponents, not be healthy afterward! (insert 1817 stories of taking a score of shorts, floating half a dozen new companies, taking 20-30 or more loans, buying the rest of the trains, and then not needing to cover the shorts because all the shorted companies imploded, and not worrying about interest rates as all the loans flooded back from the dead companies)

Quote:
One could argue that this is no longer 1830 in its pure form ...


Verily.

Quote:
All this said, again thanks for the quick reply, much appreciated and very helpful.


Welcome.
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J C Lawrence
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BtB if your kids are handling Westpark-1830 well enough, then 1860: Railways on the Isle of Wight may also do well, as well as being a glaring change of pace.
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Russell InGA
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millenium_baby wrote:
...
I have orderd a 1817 but it may yet need some time to get to me. In addition I mainly play 1830 with my underaged sons, 8 and 9 years old, hence the totality of financial options 1817 offers might be to much. ...


I'm pretty impressed! The fact that you have them playing 1830 at all is a real accomplishment!

----------------------------------------------------

And, kudos to Clearclaw for the time he spends on BGG! A valuable resource to us all!


And finally, it's your game and your gamers! Play how you guys enjoy! For me, the most important thing if you use "House Rules" or "Variants" is to understand the "real" rule from the House Rule. That way if you happen to play 1830 live with different people you don't get smashed in the face by "What do you mean I can't scrap a train?"

(Kind of long, rambly post.) gulp soblue shake
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