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Subject: Historical 'Jesus'....nope, not likelly at all rss

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Dr Who
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Did the historical Jesus exist? A growing number of scholars don’t think so

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/did-historical-jesus-exis...

Most antiquities scholars think that the New Testament gospels are “mythologized history.” In other words, they think that around the start of the first century a controversial Jewish rabbi named Yeshua ben Yosef gathered a following and his life and teachings provided the seed that grew into Christianity.

At the same time, these scholars acknowledge that many Bible stories like the virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, and women at the tomb borrow and rework mythic themes that were common in the Ancient Near East, much the way that screenwriters base new movies on old familiar tropes or plot elements. In this view, a “historical Jesus” became mythologized.

The notion that Jesus never existed is a minority position. Of course it is! says David Fitzgerald, author of Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All . For centuries all serious scholars of Christianity were Christians themselves, and modern secular scholars lean heavily on the groundwork that they laid in collecting, preserving, and analyzing ancient texts. Even today most secular scholars come out of a religious background, and many operate by default under historical presumptions of their former faith.

1. No first century secular evidence whatsoever exists to support the actuality of Yeshua ben Yosef.

2. The earliest New Testament writers seem ignorant of the details of Jesus’ life, which become more crystalized in later texts.

3. Even the New Testament stories don’t claim to be first-hand accounts.

4. The gospels, our only accounts of a historical Jesus, contradict each other.

5. Modern scholars who claim to have uncovered the real historical Jesus depict wildly different persons.

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For me personally I don't think that that matters.

It is the message that is important!
 
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Dr Who
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anemaat wrote:
For me personally I don't think that that matters.

It is the message that is important!


So you like lies.....lots of people do. You fit right in.
 
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I personally don't believe any such person existed either. So what? I'm already not a Christian myself.
 
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Dr Who
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whac3 wrote:
I personally don't believe any such person existed either. So what? I'm already not a Christian myself.


you are an ortohox jew...it's well known you wouldn't

So what?

well, moses didn't exist either, nor abraham, nor a flood story, nor an exodus

So that's what.
 
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DrWhoWho wrote:
anemaat wrote:
For me personally I don't think that that matters.

It is the message that is important!


So you like lies.....lots of people do. You fit right in.


Like Star Wars!
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Boaty McBoatface
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I bet there was some bloke called Jesus. Just as there really was a real pirate called Jack Sparrow (born Christan, but converted to Islam to engage in piracy with the Barbary pirates).
 
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slatersteven wrote:
I bet there was some bloke called Jesus.


He played for Brazil in the seventies. It's a little known fact that the Bible is actually just an attempt to explain the offside rule.
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DrWhoWho wrote:
whac3 wrote:
I personally don't believe any such person existed either. So what? I'm already not a Christian myself.


you are an ortohox jew...it's well known you wouldn't

So what?

well, moses didn't exist either, nor abraham, nor a flood story, nor an exodus

So that's what.

Ouch! That is going to hurt someone.
 
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scifiantihero wrote:
DrWhoWho wrote:
anemaat wrote:
For me personally I don't think that that matters.

It is the message that is important!


So you like lies.....lots of people do. You fit right in.


Like Star Wars!

... and Lord of the Rings ... and The Hobbit.

They seems to have quite a few followers nowadays.
 
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Archonsod wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
I bet there was some bloke called Jesus.


He played for Brazil in the seventies. It's a little known fact that the Bible is actually just an attempt to explain the offside rule.
thought that was Marx.
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Boaty McBoatface
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anemaat wrote:
DrWhoWho wrote:
whac3 wrote:
I personally don't believe any such person existed either. So what? I'm already not a Christian myself.


you are an ortohox jew...it's well known you wouldn't

So what?

well, moses didn't exist either, nor abraham, nor a flood story, nor an exodus

So that's what.

Ouch! That is going to hurt someone.
Fuck, blanked that one out.
 
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DrWhoWho wrote:
anemaat wrote:
For me personally I don't think that that matters.

It is the message that is important!


So you like lies.....lots of people do. You fit right in.

I wouldn't call The Message a lie, do you?

Have you ever read Matthew 23? I see that a lot around me.
 
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anemaat wrote:
DrWhoWho wrote:
anemaat wrote:
For me personally I don't think that that matters.

It is the message that is important!


So you like lies.....lots of people do. You fit right in.

I wouldn't call The Message a lie, do you?

Have you ever read Matthew 23? I see that a lot around me.


Don't interrupt Dr. Whowho's self esteem exercises. The doctor said it's very important for him to believe that he is better than others, it might help with his bed wetting.
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lotus dweller
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Lets start at the other end of the stick.

Was Jesus made up out of imagination only?
Maybe, but less likely as we have fairly good evidence of his brothers including James.

Was Jesus as presented to me in Sunday School. (Actually it was Saturday school too but that's another story.)
No, we can be very confident that both James and any Jesus were Jewish. Whatever that meant in 30 BCE.

So somewhere between these two points is the likely reality.
This area includes a person who might have been the basis for the NT stories.

Hence there could well have been a historical Jesus.

Why be an irrational unbeliever?
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lotus dweller
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The Old Rugged Cross hey?
Lets go all out Euc I say.
You'll want your bass boost and subwoofers on for this.



And we all get Christmas updates to our NSA files too.
(I'm hearing that "Sufi" ain't just what it used to be.)
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Borack
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DrWhoWho wrote:
Did the historical Jesus exist? A growing number of scholars don’t think so

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/did-historical-jesus-exis...

Most antiquities scholars think that the New Testament gospels are “mythologized history.” In other words, they think that around the start of the first century a controversial Jewish rabbi named Yeshua ben Yosef gathered a following and his life and teachings provided the seed that grew into Christianity.

At the same time, these scholars acknowledge that many Bible stories like the virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, and women at the tomb borrow and rework mythic themes that were common in the Ancient Near East, much the way that screenwriters base new movies on old familiar tropes or plot elements. In this view, a “historical Jesus” became mythologized.

The notion that Jesus never existed is a minority position. Of course it is! says David Fitzgerald, author of Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All . For centuries all serious scholars of Christianity were Christians themselves, and modern secular scholars lean heavily on the groundwork that they laid in collecting, preserving, and analyzing ancient texts. Even today most secular scholars come out of a religious background, and many operate by default under historical presumptions of their former faith.

1. No first century secular evidence whatsoever exists to support the actuality of Yeshua ben Yosef.

2. The earliest New Testament writers seem ignorant of the details of Jesus’ life, which become more crystalized in later texts.

3. Even the New Testament stories don’t claim to be first-hand accounts.

4. The gospels, our only accounts of a historical Jesus, contradict each other.

5. Modern scholars who claim to have uncovered the real historical Jesus depict wildly different persons.



As I am atheist I believe I am qualified to make the following statement... DrWhowho., .you are a dick and a bully....What the fuck do you care if people have faith in Jesus, Hobbits or whatever..You spew your horseshit on the eve of the holiest day of their faith...You truly are an asshole with no value system at all..
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So, what's your point? Other than being another secular humanist hell-bent on tearing down others?

Oh, wait, there's no hell...
 
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J.L.Robert wrote:
So, what's your point? Other than being another secular humanist hell-bent on tearing down others?

Oh, wait, there's no hell...


I believe the secular humanist phrase is Jersey-bent, at least in the US.
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DrWhoWho wrote:
1. No first century secular evidence whatsoever exists to support the actuality of Yeshua ben Yosef.


This is an example of an overly narrow superlative, in that the first century evidence we have isn't secular, and the secular evidence we have isn't first century. It's not really a good reason not to think Jesus existed.

Quote:
2. The earliest New Testament writers seem ignorant of the details of Jesus’ life, which become more crystalized in later texts.


Huh? I'm not even sure what this means. Is it supposed to refer to the fact that Luke is generally a more detailed account that the old Mark and Matthew? I'm not sure how that's relevant...

Quote:
3. Even the New Testament stories don’t claim to be first-hand accounts.


The Gospel of John does in several places. Whoever you copied this claim from has apparently not read the documents they're trying to debunk...

Quote:
4. The gospels, our only accounts of a historical Jesus, contradict each other.


See above, having not read them. Any document can be analyzed into absurdity with a severe enough reading of it. The Bible is often given this treatment, and of course it says more about the reader then it does the text.

Quote:
5. Modern scholars who claim to have uncovered the real historical Jesus depict wildly different persons.


Given that they're all working from the same set of data, that tells me a good deal about modern scholars; I'm not sure what it tells me about the so-called "historical Jesus".
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Hi DrWhoWho, here is a Boxing Day present for youwho.


Rather than pushing a heavy "there was no historical Jesus" barrow up a steep hill, why not look around at the candidates for the basis of the historical Jesus.

My current favourite, in terms of intrigue and narrative possibility, come from the work of Unterbrink.

You have heard of Flavius Josephus and Josephus' "Antiquities of the Jews"?
And the Testimonium Flavianum therein?
And Tacitus' Annals?
These are the best available secular histories of Israel around the time when Christianity.


Unterbrink raises a interesting idea that explains why the early Christian movement is pretty absent from both accounts (Tacitus' and Josephus'). He claims early Christians were Zealots and followers of the executed Judas of Galilee (a violent anti-Roman revolutionary, called, if I remember correctly, Messiah by his armed followers). Both Judas of Galillee and the Zealots do feature strongly in the accounts - with the execution of Judas of Galillee's descendents being noted. Unterbrink then suggests that the mystery of why Judas of Galilee's execution isn't included is that it was swapped out for the Testimonium Flavianum by later transcribers.

This last claim has the delightful property of being able to be stated as falsifiable claim - (falsifiable claim; the original version of Antiquities of the Jews contains the Testimonium Flavianum that is in later transcriptions) - eventually an early copy of Antiquities of the Jews may be found - and if it contains no Testimonium Flavianum but instead details of Judas of Galilee's death then one more plank in the raft for a "spiritual" non-politically-engaged Jesus would be gone.

UNTERBRINK


I emphasise that Unterbrink's work hasn't got me convinced - but it does at least give a clearer idea of the immediate history of Israel around 1AD and the possibilities available.

A somewhat similar but far more authoritative line of attack on the historical accuracy of the OT can be found in the works of Finkelstein and Silberman, "The Bible Unearthed".

 
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Borack wrote:
DrWhoWho wrote:
Did the historical Jesus exist? A growing number of scholars don’t think so

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/did-historical-jesus-exis...

Most antiquities scholars think that the New Testament gospels are “mythologized history.” In other words, they think that around the start of the first century a controversial Jewish rabbi named Yeshua ben Yosef gathered a following and his life and teachings provided the seed that grew into Christianity.

At the same time, these scholars acknowledge that many Bible stories like the virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, and women at the tomb borrow and rework mythic themes that were common in the Ancient Near East, much the way that screenwriters base new movies on old familiar tropes or plot elements. In this view, a “historical Jesus” became mythologized.

The notion that Jesus never existed is a minority position. Of course it is! says David Fitzgerald, author of Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All . For centuries all serious scholars of Christianity were Christians themselves, and modern secular scholars lean heavily on the groundwork that they laid in collecting, preserving, and analyzing ancient texts. Even today most secular scholars come out of a religious background, and many operate by default under historical presumptions of their former faith.

1. No first century secular evidence whatsoever exists to support the actuality of Yeshua ben Yosef.

2. The earliest New Testament writers seem ignorant of the details of Jesus’ life, which become more crystalized in later texts.

3. Even the New Testament stories don’t claim to be first-hand accounts.

4. The gospels, our only accounts of a historical Jesus, contradict each other.

5. Modern scholars who claim to have uncovered the real historical Jesus depict wildly different persons.



As I am atheist I believe I am qualified to make the following statement... DrWhowho., .you are a dick and a bully....What the fuck do you care if people have faith in Jesus, Hobbits or whatever..You spew your horseshit on the eve of the holiest day of their faith...You truly are an asshole with no value system at all..
To be fair to who (fuck knows why) his attitude seems to be motivated by something far more personal then intellectual dislike.

There are many in this world who have been (or would be if people did not stand up to religionists) mistreated by religion (yes religion, not just those who subscribe to it).

To be fair not all religions do this, but it is easy to see why a gay or victim of catholic cover ups would hate religion.
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No thumbs up? devil Let me give you the first one, maybe even the only one

Jesus as is described in bible didn`t exist, but someone with good ideas and big heart did.
 
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