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Subject: Scenario Turn Length rss

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Jeffery McCulloch
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I did an analysis (because it is what I get paid for in the real world) of the scenario turn length for all 26 scenarios. Here is what I found:

20 of 26 are deficient in the number of cards required.
1 of 26 is spot on with exactly the number of cards needed.
5 of 26 have more cards than required.

Of the 20 scenarios that do not have enough cards to reach the maximum game length:

4 are missing one card
2 are missing 2 cards
2 are missing 4 cards
2 are missing 5 cards
1 is missing 6 cards
1 is missing 7 cards
1 is missing 9 cards
1 is missing 10 cards
3 are missing 11 cards
2 are missing 16 cards (!!!)

Now, you guys know how I can be. In this case I'll let the numbers speak for themselves. There was enough griping on BGG about this sort of thing in SMG. I will say that I'm rather surprised, and disappointed, that this wasn't caught and fixed before release. I can only hope that JB will speak to this issue.
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Jeffery McCulloch
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Sorry, 3 are missing 4 cards.
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Jeffery McCulloch
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Okay, a possible solution to the missing scenario card issue:

Count up the number of base cards the scenario calls for and note how many cards short you are. Randomly select from the follow cards:

1-5, 30-51

to make up the difference. Problem solved. The cards are neutral and include no specific landmarks or characters.
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Robert Boeck
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Maybe JB thinks there will be 16 custom soldiers with story cards added to the fight? :-) This is nice research.
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Mayor Jim
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Good job Jeff...the results are not surprising to me given LBGs history...disappointing, but not surprising.
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Bill Wallace
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Taking the step after analysis, to deduction, what that these numbers say -- shout--about how much the scenarios were playtested?

Heck, they weren't even proofed.

Consistent in all the wrong places.
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Jeff Pseudonym
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I fail to see why this needs to be spot on. Almost all specialists have story cards that can be added to the deck which would throw off counts anyway. Armor will do the same I'm sure.

The game clearly states the game ends when you run out of cards OR you reach the turn length.

-Jeff M.
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Jeffery McCulloch
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@Jeff P: The issue is that the scenarios in the base game need to be played as-is, without purchasing anything else. The scenario book states the scenario length represents the maximum number of game turns, so having too many cards is fine. But too few means you will never reach the maximum number of turns. Yes, there are story cards that take some of the cards away, but this is okay too.

Rather than bitch about sloppy scenario work, I'd rather focus on a solution. I think I found one.
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Bill Wallace
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Good effort, Jeff.

But, as you post elsewhere about the cards with SMG terms that don't matter in DDS, you are correct--make them replace all the defective stuff.

Only if the collective customer base holds them accountable--and makes it really HURT-- is anyone at LBG going to realize that selling and shipping stuff that isn't even "complete" enough for the Beta testing they never do is unprofitable.

Some of the smarter smg customers learned to suppress their urge to have new stuff while still new. " Wait six-seven months for the early birds to catch the mistakes and the reprinted versions to get into circulation."
 
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Jeffery McCulloch
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BillW wrote:
Good effort, Jeff.

But, as you post elsewhere about the cards with SMG terms that don't matter in DDS, you are correct--make them replace all the defective stuff.

Only if the collective customer base holds them accountable--and makes it really HURT-- is anyone at LBG going to realize that selling and shipping stuff that isn't even "complete" enough for the Beta testing they never do is unprofitable.

Some of the smarter smg customers learned to suppress their urge to have new stuff while still new. " Wait six-seven months for the early birds to catch the mistakes and the reprinted versions to get into circulation."


The software-engineering phrase we use in the Federal government is "test in production".
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Jeff Pseudonym
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skippykaos wrote:
@Jeff P: The issue is that the scenarios in the base game need to be played as-is, without purchasing anything else. The scenario book states the scenario length represents the maximum number of game turns, so having too many cards is fine. But too few means you will never reach the maximum number of turns. Yes, there are story cards that take some of the cards away, but this is okay too.

Rather than bitch about sloppy scenario work, I'd rather focus on a solution. I think I found one.


The key might be the word Maximum. Since there is no minimum number of turns I find the game playable as-is. I have yet to have a game end because I have exhausted the deck or hit the max turn number.

It's not that you don't have a valid question, but it may be better to ask JB if it's an error or if there is some reason for the discrepancy before attempting to fix it.

-Jeff M.
 
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Jeffery McCulloch
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Jeff P: As you know, the word "maximum" is what I keyed on first and is the original basis of my post. That being said, creating a scenario with a 16 card discrepancy doesn't seem to be a feature. Granted, a game that sets its maximum at 17 turns is inviting a very long game, and if a typical game is far shorter in length when played, as I am finding, one of the following must be true:

1. The scenario length is intentionally arbitrarily longer than the story cards can support without substantial beefing up by additional story cards from soldiers and other means. This means the maximum scenario length can never be reached in the base game. If this is the case, why aren't all scenarios consistently arbitrary?

2. The number of story cards required by the scenario is incorrect, mostly because the cards 98 - 128 (scenarios 7 and higher) are actually orders and equipment, not story cards. The missing cards are, therefore, an oversight. If this is the case, as would BillW subscribes to, then the scenario designers screwed up.

An additional question: If the maximum game length is just some number tossed out there that has no basis in reality, why have a maximum turn length at all? You know before the game starts the given turn limit based on the number of story cards you have, plus additions from soldiers. To that you have to keep in mind the two events that strip story cards. Have that as your known limit and run with it. Scratch out the maximum turn limit on all scenarios and it is no longer an issue.

By the way, thanks for discussion.

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Jeff Pseudonym
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I enjoy discussions. Always fun to see how others think and sometimes you learn things.

Why there are max turn limits to begin with is beyond me.

Doing a bit of looking through SMG, the Max Game Turns is spot on with the amount of Story Cards used divided by 3 for the Road to Carentan Chapter 2 missions.

The max turn number is the same for both SDD and SMG missions of the same name. However the decks will be slightly different and this may be the cause of the discrepancy. I have my SDD deck set up to play tonight so I'm not going to mess it up to do more research, but it would be interesting to compare the SMG Story Cards to the SDD ones. If they pull or add different numbers of cards it would be interesting to see what the differences are.

I'll let you know what I find.

-Jeff M.
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Jeffery McCulloch
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Hanomag wrote:
I enjoy discussions. Always fun to see how others think and sometimes you learn things.

Why there are max turn limits to begin with is beyond me.

Doing a bit of looking through SMG, the Max Game Turns is spot on with the amount of Story Cards used divided by 3 for the Road to Carentan Chapter 2 missions.

The max turn number is the same for both SDD and SMG missions of the same name. However the decks will be slightly different and this may be the cause of the discrepancy. I have my SDD deck set up to play tonight so I'm not going to mess it up to do more research, but it would be interesting to compare the SMG Story Cards to the SDD ones. If they pull or add different numbers of cards it would be interesting to see what the differences are.

I'll let you know what I find.

-Jeff M.


I look forward to your analysis. Also let me know how tonight's game goes (what scenario, how long it lasted, etc.)
 
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Rob Belli
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Hey guys!
Yes I am sorry to say there is a current issue with the scenario card numbers. It looks like an early dev iteration was printed instead of the final one. That was entirely my fault . I will be updating our production files to the correct ones and we will be sending out a correct copy of the Scenario books to each of our KS backers.

Sorry for the mistake, however, for the time being your scenarios will still work. Just add a number of Story Event cards from deck 65-128 to make up the difference (divide the turn count by 3). I will update you all soon as to when we will start shipping them out.
 
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Peter
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Jeffx2 -- thanks for the analysis and discussion.

Rob, thanks for the answer and update on next steps for corrective action.
 
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Jeffery McCulloch
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Just to clarify, add cards from the deck not principally used, which can be either the 1-64 or the 65-128 deck.
 
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Jeff Pseudonym
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I believe the issue is closer to this:
Deck 1-65 is more or less Day of Days
Deck 65-128 is more or less Road to Carentan.
However the order cards from Day of Days was moved back to group them with the RtC ones. This means that the first 13 (IIRC) Story Cards of RtC (Deck 2)are now in the end of Deck 1.

The down and dirty fix right now would be to add cards 52-64 of Deck 1 to every scenario that that uses Deck 2 (65-128). It's really a bit more complex than what I described but that fix should get you close to the right amount (or over) the turns.

-Jeff M.
 
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