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Subject: Is going last overrated? rss

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kalvin connor
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Hey all,

Iv been playing this game a lot lately and really love it. But here on the forums, I see many people talking about the advantage of going last. I highly dissagree with going last as the best option. In turn one, I believe it is the best to be in if you want permanent vps. But if you plan on winning with a passive strategy, then going last isnt always advantageous.

You lose a lot of buying power and fast. I have bought strong tiles to stop other players from getting those tiles many times. I really enjoy going first. But thats just me. I believe in putting pressure on others when going first. Its a good strategy. Like, just go in and kill as many troops as possible, even if you have 1 troop doing it.

This possibly should be in strategy, but I think I want to talk about this in a general and opinionated way rather than objectively making it a strategy
 
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Shane Larsen
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I've never seen someone win a game as the first player of that round.

In the majority of my games, the person going last or second-to-last has been the winner.

There are some advantages to going early in the early game, but towards the end of the game, being the first player makes it really hard to win. And conversely, going last puts you in a better position to pull off the win.
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Daniel Honig
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If you are playing a relatively defensive game and are deep in blue (particularly with Defensive Victory) and can pick up the Sphinx on the last turn as player 1, going early on the last round is not the worst thing ever. However, for more aggressive strategies it is usually pretty awful.
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Andy Day

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Andarel wrote:
If you are playing a relatively defensive game and are deep in blue (particularly with Defensive Victory) and can pick up the Sphinx on the last turn as player 1, going early on the last round is not the worst thing ever. However, for more aggressive strategies it is usually pretty awful.

Going last isn't a good idea early in the game. YOu want to go first on the first few rounds of the game (to get tiles), then go last on what you think will be the last turn of the game.

If you go first and get to the winning amount of victory points, you'll get mowed down before the round ends. There's basically no way to avoid it until all of your VP are permanent (and that won't happen unless your opponent's are total nincompoops).

Otherwise, you go first, get to a winning amount of VP, then every opponent has a shot at reducing you by VP to prevent you from winning... and often take victory themselves.

If this isn't how you see things happen in your game, I'd venture to guess that you're playing with nincompoops.
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kalvin connor
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I think you guys are suggesting that other players are weak players. But I do not believe this is the case.

Lets say on turn X-1 where X is the end of the game, I decimate all of your armies while attacking (and say I lost the battles too, I just want to kill your troops). Now lets say you did not go white. At best, what you can do is recruit and try to attack me back. But I dont see working out too well. Because I will decimate any forces in temples to make sure that you wont get extra prayer and I will. Then, I will recruit and teleport my troops over before you get the chance too if im going first or before you on turn X.

I think its about playing the game smart and not so much dependent on when you go. The only time I think its important to go last is the first turn. But thats just me and this is why I have my beliefs.
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Mad Tiest

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I'm with Andy on this one.

The main question is: Are your opponents buying the silver and gold tokens and saving them for their final turns? If they don't, then I guess you can win by going first. Otherwise: They will go for massive VP sweeps in their final turn and defeat you every time.

sircaradoc wrote:

Lets say on turn X-1 where X is the end of the game, I decimate all of your armies while attacking (and say I lost the battles too, I just want to kill your troops). Now lets say you did not go white. At best, what you can do is recruit and try to attack me back. But I dont see working out too well. Because I will decimate any forces in temples to make sure that you wont get extra prayer and I will. Then, I will recruit and teleport my troops over before you get the chance too if im going first or before you on turn X.

In our games every single player tries to get some economic tiles. Even if it's just +1PP when praying and blue's 2 free recruits. Every decent player is going to make sure they have enough PP saved to recruit a new army in what looks like the potential final turn. If you are first or second in turn order you can rampage all you want, but all players after you will use their silver/gold tokens to recruit a new army and then invade your city and/or kick you out of temples to make sure you don't keep 8VP.

The player who is last in the final turn may not have a single unit left after all the fighting, and you can occupy one his pyramids, but in the final move of the game he can recruit a new army which triggers a fight, probably win, and use the silver action token to move and take 2 temples for 3VP, going from a measly 4 to 8VP. If your army is too strong, he may simply let you have the pyramid and recruit elsewhere. But that's not all:

*If this player also has a gold action token he can capture even more pyramids and temples.
*Technically you can do unlimited teleportation in 1 move action. If the final player has the 'teleport from obelisks' tile or the right DI cards he can also grab many more temples and pyramids.
*If the players who are 3rd, 4th and 5th each recruit an army with their 4th action instead of their final action, it is very unlikely players 1 and 2 can destroy all of those armies in their 5th move. Whichever players have their army in tact can then use their final action and 'silver/gold token' and 'phoenix/ignore walls' to capture several pyramids and temples in their final turn.
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Alejandro Magno
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Depending on the number of players, it can be good to be first or second on the first turns of the game to get some of the op tiles. But quick going last becomes the best thing, and in the finals turns, it just too good.
The main reason is that if you go last, getting 6-9 VP in a single turn is quite likely.
One of my last games, before i used variant, i was 4 VP, went last, and gained 9 VP for a total of 13. Impossible to pull that off in any other position, the other players were 7-9 vp at the start of the round, and even reached 10 VP and 11 VP by teh end, but i won because 13 VP is bigger. I would never be able to pull something like that without going last.
And beyond as specific case, this is pretty common.
I´m not saying going last is a guaranteed win. You still need the right tiles, but once you have them (silver token, Golden token, some movement tiles, Movement DI helps, Initiative helps, etc) You don´t need all the tiles, just a few of them and can pull some impressive things by going last. I didn´t even had the golden tile or initiative in the game i mention.
To make it clear, imnot talking about making 9VP the last ROUND, but the last TURN.
Going not last, doesn´t work because you have to spread extremly thing to pull it off and your opponents could just wipe you out, but since you are last, they don´t get the chance and is game over.
 
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kalvin connor
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MadTiest wrote:
I'm with Andy on this one.

The main question is: Are your opponents buying the silver and gold tokens and saving them for their final turns? If they don't, then I guess you can win by going first. Otherwise: They will go for massive VP sweeps in their final turn and defeat you every time.

sircaradoc wrote:

Lets say on turn X-1 where X is the end of the game, I decimate all of your armies while attacking (and say I lost the battles too, I just want to kill your troops). Now lets say you did not go white. At best, what you can do is recruit and try to attack me back. But I dont see working out too well. Because I will decimate any forces in temples to make sure that you wont get extra prayer and I will. Then, I will recruit and teleport my troops over before you get the chance too if im going first or before you on turn X.

In our games every single player tries to get some economic tiles. Even if it's just +1PP when praying and blue's 2 free recruits. Every decent player is going to make sure they have enough PP saved to recruit a new army in what looks like the potential final turn. If you are first or second in turn order you can rampage all you want, but all players after you will use their silver/gold tokens to recruit a new army and then invade your city and/or kick you out of temples to make sure you don't keep 8VP.

The player who is last in the final turn may not have a single unit left after all the fighting, and you can occupy one his pyramids, but in the final move of the game he can recruit a new army which triggers a fight, probably win, and use the silver action token to move and take 2 temples for 3VP, going from a measly 4 to 8VP. If your army is too strong, he may simply let you have the pyramid and recruit elsewhere. But that's not all:

*If this player also has a gold action token he can capture even more pyramids and temples.
*Technically you can do unlimited teleportation in 1 move action. If the final player has the 'teleport from obelisks' tile or the right DI cards he can also grab many more temples and pyramids.
*If the players who are 3rd, 4th and 5th each recruit an army with their 4th action instead of their final action, it is very unlikely players 1 and 2 can destroy all of those armies in their 5th move. Whichever players have their army in tact can then use their final action and 'silver/gold token' and 'phoenix/ignore walls' to capture several pyramids and temples in their final turn.


yes, you can teleport infinitely assuming you have the pp to do so AS LONG as you dont run into an army. As soon as a battle takes place, all movement is over. I highly doubt all of the temples would be empty enough for you to be able keep teleporting as you are suggesting.

I recently just played a game where I went first in a player game on the last turn and won. I needed 2vp on my last turn. I didn't have the gold action. So I could move at most 2 times. Well, I moved and won 2 battles to put me at 6, almost no way to get up to 6. But a player with 7 was occupying my lvl4 temple in my home city and I have a recruit action left. So with my last move, I recruit into my city, win the battle and defend my city with my only lvl 4 temple. I also controlled another players temple who only had 2 troops left and was unable to teleport back to his city and was too far away.

Going "not last" isnt bad. I think there is always ways to win as long as you can predict others moves because you know they also have to try to win the game
 
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kalvin connor
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Waterd wrote:
Depending on the number of players, it can be good to be first or second on the first turns of the game to get some of the op tiles. But quick going last becomes the best thing, and in the finals turns, it just too good.
The main reason is that if you go last, getting 6-9 VP in a single turn is quite likely.
One of my last games, before i used variant, i was 4 VP, went last, and gained 9 VP for a total of 13. Impossible to pull that off in any other position, the other players were 7-9 vp at the start of the round, and even reached 10 VP and 11 VP by teh end, but i won because 13 VP is bigger. I would never be able to pull something like that without going last.
And beyond as specific case, this is pretty common.
I´m not saying going last is a guaranteed win. You still need the right tiles, but once you have them (silver token, Golden token, some movement tiles, Movement DI helps, Initiative helps, etc) You don´t need all the tiles, just a few of them and can pull some impressive things by going last. I didn´t even had the golden tile or initiative in the game i mention.
To make it clear, imnot talking about making 9VP the last ROUND, but the last TURN.
Going not last, doesn´t work because you have to spread extremly thing to pull it off and your opponents could just wipe you out, but since you are last, they don´t get the chance and is game over.


could you detail how your getting so many on a single turn? The only way I see someone gets close to 9vp on a single turn is as follows: teleport to temples costing 5-10pp assuming you have teleport from tile (or you happen to have all of the di cards to do so). This nets you 5vp. And perhaps you fight an army of 1 troop defending an oppents lvl 4 temple assuming you can negate walls. Giving you a total of 7. 9 is literally impossible on a single turn on the last turn. (ends at the day phase right? you wouldn't get the permanent vp until the night phase).

Perhaps you use initiative and kill the 2 troops before battle in a temple and you are claiming vp for that when you shouldn't because you didn't win a battle.

Perhaps you are moving, battling, and moving after.
 
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Alejandro Magno
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You get the permanent VP at the end of the day phase, so it counts for winning the game.

In the game in question i had an army on left small temple with mummy and godspeed

Walked onto opponent pyramid level 4 with Walls DI. 1
Walk to other pyramid level 4 army and kill that army 2
New level 4 pyramid 3

I used silver token to teleport base army which has a phoenix onto a side empty temple 4
Walk with phoenix into opponent pyramid level 4 5
Teleport to an empty temple 6
Use DI obelisk to get to a temple with an army and kill that army 7
New temple 8
End of turn, i control 2 temples 9

I got mummy first turn, and +1 Di card per turn on turn 2, so I had lots of di Combat cards. Also had blades and charge for extra attack.And Di cards for protection. I just played back only fighting my left temple for most of the game and accumlating DI cards, to get this final turn.

I don´t remember all my tiles but If I´m not wrong
Red
Godspeed
Charge
Blades of neith
Phoenix

White
Mummy
Divine boon
Holy war
Silver token
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kalvin connor
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Ok, fair enough. If you happen to have both movement actions left with the silver token left I can see this happening. To be fair though, if I saw this ending my phase before you, I would try to recruit to my lvl4 temple that you dont have or move troops there so that you cant take it. Especially when I know you have the phenix. Or better yet, I could move just one troop outside my city to stop you out there (every city has 1 entrence before getting to walls. Yes you will still win the battle, but you wont get my temple AND a new lvl 4).

And I guess I miss read the rules. I though you only get temporary vp on your own pyramids being lvl 4. Hmm I guess it makes sense that if the color you take is not one you have of lvl4 you get the temporary. And I checked the rules, and your right on the end of the day phase. Damn it... haha at least I can admit im wrong!

Like I said, I think if you try the game out with different glasses on than "I have to go last the last turn" then perhaps youd see what im talking about. Not going last is all about how you plan out your way to win knowing the last guy will go on a rampage at the end.

I see the way you went for the mummy. Thats a big investment early. But if you go last turn 1 it could definitely pay off
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Alejandro Magno
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This is a standard opening for me.

1.Buy level 4 white puramid (0)
2.Pray
3.Pray
4.Buy Mummy
5.Move mummy to small temple


 
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kalvin connor
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Waterd wrote:
This is a standard opening for me.

1.Buy level 4 white puramid (0)
2.Pray
3.Pray
4.Buy Mummy
5.Move mummy to small temple




I always buy the 3 prayer instead of 2 first because I end up praying a lot during the game. But moving the mummy to small temple would make it very un-enticing to attack you, regaining the 2 you lost on not having that power tile. Im starting to think its a bad buy (the 3 prayer instead of 2). I personally love the elephant turn 1. Its just so good (IMO) and if you can couple it with the permanent defense... So long to having to recruit! haha.
 
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Mad Tiest

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sircaradoc wrote:

yes, you can teleport infinitely assuming you have the pp to do so AS LONG as you dont run into an army. As soon as a battle takes place, all movement is over. I highly doubt all of the temples would be empty enough for you to be able keep teleporting as you are suggesting.

In our games temples often end up empty because people recall after a battle to avoid becoming easy prey for the next player. But your group might have a different metagame.


sircaradoc wrote:
I recently just played a game where I went first in a player game on the last turn and won. I needed 2vp on my last turn. I didn't have the gold action. So I could move at most 2 times. Well, I moved and won 2 battles to put me at 6, almost no way to get up to 6. But a player with 7 was occupying my lvl4 temple in my home city and I have a recruit action left. So with my last move, I recruit into my city, win the battle and defend my city with my only lvl 4 temple. I also controlled another players temple who only had 2 troops left and was unable to teleport back to his city and was too far away.


With how many players are you playing? With only 3 players I guess it's possible the 2 others are outmaneuvered, mess up, and are unable to recruit and move an army in their final turn. But with 4 or 5 experienced players at least one or two player should be able to recruit and move an army in their final turn to deprive you of your winning VP. Placing a unit in front of your city is only going to stop one move action of one player.

Finally: you receive VP for every level 4 pyramid you control (so 2 red level 4 pyramids is 2 VP). If you didn't grant VP for captured pyramids then that explains why players are unable to do the massive VP sweeps in their final turn to beat you.
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kalvin connor
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MadTiest wrote:
sircaradoc wrote:

yes, you can teleport infinitely assuming you have the pp to do so AS LONG as you dont run into an army. As soon as a battle takes place, all movement is over. I highly doubt all of the temples would be empty enough for you to be able keep teleporting as you are suggesting.

In our games temples often end up empty because people recall after a battle to avoid becoming easy prey for the next player. But your group might have a different metagame.


sircaradoc wrote:
I recently just played a game where I went first in a player game on the last turn and won. I needed 2vp on my last turn. I didn't have the gold action. So I could move at most 2 times. Well, I moved and won 2 battles to put me at 6, almost no way to get up to 6. But a player with 7 was occupying my lvl4 temple in my home city and I have a recruit action left. So with my last move, I recruit into my city, win the battle and defend my city with my only lvl 4 temple. I also controlled another players temple who only had 2 troops left and was unable to teleport back to his city and was too far away.


With how many players are you playing? With only 3 players I guess it's possible the 2 others are outmaneuvered, mess up, and are unable to recruit and move an army in their final turn. But with 4 or 5 experienced players at least one or two player should be able to recruit and move an army in their final turn to deprive you of your winning VP. Placing a unit in front of your city is only going to stop one move action of one player.

Finally: you receive VP for every level 4 pyramid you control (so 2 red level 4 pyramids is 2 VP). If you didn't grant VP for captured pyramids then that explains why players are unable to do the massive VP sweeps in their final turn to beat you.


It was a 5 player game!

We have been granting vp to those that capture but not to any level 4 that is not theirs. I guess it makes sense because we have been requiring the player to just give their temporary to the other player if they had a lvl 4. If no level 4, just take a temporary from the pile.

So, could you in theory upgrade a pyramid to level 4 that is not yours to get temporary?

Also, even with experienced players, I am a very good con artist I tend to be able to manipulate players into doing what I want.
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Mad Tiest

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sircaradoc wrote:

It was a 5 player game!

We have been granting vp to those that capture but not to any level 4 that is not theirs. I guess it makes sense because we have been requiring the player to just give their temporary to the other player if they had a lvl 4. If no level 4, just take a temporary from the pile.

So, could you in theory upgrade a pyramid to level 4 that is not yours to get temporary?

Also, even with experienced players, I am a very good con artist I tend to be able to manipulate players into doing what I want.

I'm not sure I understand how you've been playing the pyramid VP rule: Players gain a temporary VP from the bank for upgrading a pyramid to level 4. When another player conquers a level 4 Pyramid they gain the temporary VP from the victim. When the original owner conquers the pyramid back, or the occupier leaves, the victim gains the temporary VP back. You don't gain anything for capturing a lower level pyramid.

IIRC you can upgrade an opponents pyramid to gain a temporary VP.

Manipulating players into spending their one recruit action earlier in the final turn does seem essential to winning on an earlier turn.
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kalvin connor
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MadTiest wrote:
sircaradoc wrote:

It was a 5 player game!

We have been granting vp to those that capture but not to any level 4 that is not theirs. I guess it makes sense because we have been requiring the player to just give their temporary to the other player if they had a lvl 4. If no level 4, just take a temporary from the pile.

So, could you in theory upgrade a pyramid to level 4 that is not yours to get temporary?

Also, even with experienced players, I am a very good con artist I tend to be able to manipulate players into doing what I want.

I'm not sure I understand how you've been playing the pyramid VP rule: Players gain a temporary VP from the bank for upgrading a pyramid to level 4. When another player conquers a level 4 Pyramid they gain the temporary VP from the victim. When the original owner conquers the pyramid back, or the occupier leaves, the victim gains the temporary VP back. You don't gain anything for capturing a lower level pyramid.

IIRC you can upgrade an opponents pyramid to gain a temporary VP.

Manipulating players into spending their one recruit action earlier in the final turn does seem essential to winning on an earlier turn.


Iv been playing pyramids as follows: take and opponents and no matter what level it is, only take 1 vp. If it was a lvl 4, the owner gives their temporary to the person that has conquered their lvl 4 because that person would need to put it in the bank anyways and the conquerer would have to take from the bank. We do it to save time.
 
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kalvin connor
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So, iv revisited this talk. First off, I was wrong on pyramids. my bad. Its only worth 1 vp iff its a lvl 4, no matter what.

But back on topic. I recently played a game and was in the lead going into the last day phase, we all knew it was coming because I was 100% going to get to 8vp, or more, the next turn. So everyone gangs up on me and im going first. So, I dont remember the exect order of events but I was attacked by both other players in the beginning, forcing me to recruit early. Then I battled some, won, got some vp exex. But then the last player goes... He gets all three temporary temples, holds sanctuary of all gods and attacks me. So, he gets 3 temps, 1 perm (for 2+), 1 in the night for sacrificing (though it didn't count cause the night didn't happen). Giving 4 vp in one turn. making his 5vp turn into 9 and ties me (I won all tie breakers anyways).

So going last is extremely op. I was wrong. Hopefully they do fix this in Ta-seti
 
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sircaradoc wrote:
So, he gets 3 temps, 1 perm (for 2+), 1 in the night for sacrificing (though it didn't count cause the night didn't happen).


It does count, since sacrificing happens at the end of the day, and not in the night phase.
 
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kalvin connor
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ebqz wrote:
sircaradoc wrote:
So, he gets 3 temps, 1 perm (for 2+), 1 in the night for sacrificing (though it didn't count cause the night didn't happen).


It does count, since sacrificing happens at the end of the day, and not in the night phase.


Specially not for that temple. You can sacrifice 1 guy for 5 pp however during the day. At least thats how my latest read through of the rules went
 
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sircaradoc wrote:
ebqz wrote:
sircaradoc wrote:
So, he gets 3 temps, 1 perm (for 2+), 1 in the night for sacrificing (though it didn't count cause the night didn't happen).


It does count, since sacrificing happens at the end of the day, and not in the night phase.


Specially not for that temple. You can sacrifice 1 guy for 5 pp however during the day. At least thats how my latest read through of the rules went


Rules state:

'When all players have finished their actions, the distribution of PP and permanent VP can start'
- you get PP for withdrawing 1 unit from the Delta Temple
- You get PP for controlling the corresponding temples
- You may withdraw 2 units from the sanctuary for a permanent VP
- If you then still control 2 Temples, you get a permanent VP

After that, you check for Victory conditions.
And after that, a new Night phase starts - if the game isn't finished.

Sacrificing doesn't happen during the day, but specifically after all actions have finished.
 
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Neil Quinlan
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Waterd wrote:
This is a standard opening for me.

1.Buy level 4 white puramid (0)
2.Pray
3.Pray
4.Buy Mummy
5.Move mummy to small temple



I'm sorry, how is this even possible? As per the rules it's an illegal move in multiple ways.

Pg. 7, Creatures subheading - "The player can immediately put the creature down in one of his three city districts if he has at least one unit in his district. Otherwise, the creature is placed in front of the player, on the corresponding Power tile."

You can't send the Mummy-Priest out on his own, he needs at least one guy to go with him. In fact, how would the rest of the game even work, considering the rules for Creatures not dying and instead being sent back when there are no units left in a troop.

Maybe I'm missing something but this seems invalid in a number of ways.
 
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kalvin connor
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You start with 10 units you know right? He just goes into an army... Ov actually started using this strategy myself

garbaxo wrote:
Waterd wrote:
This is a standard opening for me.

1.Buy level 4 white puramid (0)
2.Pray
3.Pray
4.Buy Mummy
5.Move mummy to small temple



I'm sorry, how is this even possible? As per the rules it's an illegal move in multiple ways.

Pg. 7, Creatures subheading - "The player can immediately put the creature down in one of his three city districts if he has at least one unit in his district. Otherwise, the creature is placed in front of the player, on the corresponding Power tile."

You can't send the Mummy-Priest out on his own, he needs at least one guy to go with him. In fact, how would the rest of the game even work, considering the rules for Creatures not dying and instead being sent back when there are no units left in a troop.

Maybe I'm missing something but this seems invalid in a number of ways.
 
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