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Subject: I've got news for FFP... rss

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Johnny Truant
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If they plan to ask $30-40 for a single miniature expansion in the future, no matter how big, they better improve the quality of the minis about 10-fold.
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Starla Lester
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I would respectfully disagree. Flying Frog games are about the theme, the flavor, and the gameplay. In the case of Shadows of Brimstone, I would say the absolutely brilliant gameplay. This game really flows. Also, the die cut map tiles are superior to anything I've seen out there.

There are plenty of companies out there that offer beautifully detailed miniatures and merely ok gameplay. I'm good with a great game with minis that do what they were designed to do: represent a game element.

I'll be shelling out the $30 if they ask it.
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Roger Wingate
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If the future releases really are just a single figure (even an XL) for $30 retail, I think you've got a point.

However, looking at how FFP broke down the kickstarter extras (which represent the next few years of retail releases) I wouldn't expect that any figures will be released singly. I'd expect to see items bundled together with figures and cards based on the other world they come from.

For example there is the big swamp raptor, serpentmen warriors, serpentmen shaman, and the "murky conditions" card pack all for the swamps of Jargono. For retail it makes great sense to bundle these.

If the figure quality stays the same as the core boxes, future sales are probably going to depend more on how much game material is in the box than just the figures.
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Ben Turner
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It might also depend on them delivering the rest of the kickstarted copies sometime in 2015...
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John Asurin
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I'm hoping that with the second wave that they are able to get more detail out of the molds. It would help a lot with long term sales.

I actually think they have done well for their first release using hard plastics, GW didn't reach their current level of quality overnight.
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Starla Lester
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Oh, and Flying Frog will give you a whole new world with multiple miniatures, new map tiles, card decks, and scenarios for game play for that amount. One of the things I have admired about this company is that their expansions always add to the game a substantial way.
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asurin wrote:
I'm hoping that with the second wave that they are able to get more detail out of the molds. It would help a lot with long term sales.

I actually think they have done well for their first release using hard plastics, GW didn't reach their current level of quality overnight.


That's a very good point you bring up.

That said, I feel like the lack of detail is related to them trying to get the game out as soon as they did. That's just my opinion.

They did show off a Lizard Shaman in an update and wanted people to note the detail. I *feel* like they were suggesting that yes, things will improve.

That said, you get a lot of stuff in one core box for a pretty (OLGS) cheap price.

Jorune
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Johnny Truant
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Two things...

1. Sure, I, too, will gladly take a great game over a merely ok one. I'm a fan of pixelated, indie games on my pc. That said, if you're going low-res, stay low-res. This middle-of-the-road crap at prices that the future expansions currently call for is ridiculous.

2. You say that the minis do what they were design to do, "represent a game element." To that I nicely say, "sometimes" and more honestly say, "bull$hit." The zombies are bad at doing what you say they are supposed to do. From any distance at all, like sitting back in the chair, they don't adequately (imo) represent a zombie. These could just as easy be a normal cowboy as they could be a zombie.

I love the game. BUT, full-color stand-ups (like Dead of Winter) would be better GIVEN the current quality of FFP's minis. They would much more adequately represent the game elements.
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Starla Lester
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johnnytruant wrote:
Two things...

1. Sure, I, too, will gladly take a great game over a merely ok one. I'm a fan of pixelated, indie games on my pc. That said, if you're going low-res, stay low-res. This middle-of-the-road crap at prices that the future expansions currently call for is ridiculous.

2. You say that the minis do what they were design to do, "represent a game element." To that I nicely say, "sometimes" and more honestly say, "bull$hit." The zombies are bad at doing what you say they are supposed to do. From any distance at all, like sitting back in the chair, they don't adequately (imo) represent a zombie. These could just as easy be a normal cowboy as they could be a zombie.

I love the game. BUT, full-color stand-ups (like Dead of Winter) would be better GIVEN the current quality of FFP's minis. They would much more adequately represent the game elements.


I really AM sorry that you are disappointed in the minis to a degree that detracts from the game for you. And, you definitely aren't the only miniature afficianado who has posted that they are disappointed.

I've noticed that those who are more strictly board game players than miniature hobbyists are the ones who seem to feel the way I do....

So perhaps Flying Frog needs hear all the feedback and decide who their target audience is before launching another game that is miniature heavy.

I don't know whether they would have done better to stick with their old style of minis and not have disappointed so many people with previous miniature hobby experience and expectations,
OR whether the switch from one to the other in midstream was the issue and they'll improve with time.

I do recall that they had to have their molds recut (expensive!!!) because of overhang issues that aren't a problem with the softer plastic.
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Justin Colm
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Jorune wrote:
[q="asurin"]

That said, I feel like the lack of detail is related to them trying to get the game out as soon as they did. That's just my opinion.



It's my suspicion too. I think they were so desperate to have the game ready for Gencon (and be more or less on time with KS fulfillment as a nice corollary) they accepted a less than excellent standard. I wouldn't agree with that decision, should it be the case, but it at least makes me hope the wave 2 stuff will be a lot better.

I don't get it when people say 'as a board gamer I'm interested in the game, not the miniatures'. Would you be just as happy playing it print and play then? The miniatures are part of the game. To me it's equivalent to saying 'I don't care about graphics in a computer game', 'I don't care about prose style in a novel; I just want to read the story' or 'I don't care about the cinematography in a film; I just want to know what is happening'. Those things are part of the experience of the work in question, just as the components are a huge part of the experience of playing a board game. If they're not important why not just play a computer game? Why bother clearing the table and setting up all that stuff and rolling the dice and moving pieces, and having to store it away, when you could exactly replicate the game mechanics digitally? IF the mechanics are all you're interested in.

Because, actually, ALL board gamers like the tactile nature of board games and get pleasure from the components and the artwork for their own sake, on top of the pleasure they get from playing the game. I don't believe any board gamer who tells me different.

This rubbish about 'real gamers don't care about the miniatures' is just an excuse. The components in this game failed to deliver. It doesn't make the game a write-off but I'm tired of hearing people say it doesn't matter to them, with the implied implication that if I was any sort of real gamer it wouldn't matter to me either. It does matter. I play the game and I enjoy it but I don't enjoy it quite as much as I would if it had good quality miniatures, just as I would enjoy a film with a good script that little bit more still if it also had good cinematography or find a decent book that much more satisfying with quality prose.


On top of being aesthetically displeasing they're not even really very fit for purpose as they are very brittle. Already I have a Hellbat with a broken wing and a zombie with a broken pickaxe. I'm not excessively rough with them; I handle them exactly the same way as I do all of my other miniatures and they are significantly more fragile.
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Scott Arnone
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The problem is that their poor quality even for soften plastic, which is whats weird.

Comparing SoB to Imperial Assault really shows that. The Imperial Assault figures are a much softer plastic, but have an absolute ton more detail.

And I'm saying this as a board gamer first--SoB are the first minis I've actually put together, and am actually enjoying the process. But yeah, the quality should have been way higher for the required time investment given what I pulled straight out of the box in IA.
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Glenn Darrin
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Ryuu wrote:
Oh, and Flying Frog will give you a whole new world with multiple miniatures, new map tiles, card decks, and scenarios for game play for that amount. One of the things I have admired about this company is that their expansions always add to the game a substantial way.


Agreed.
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Starla Lester
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High Flying Bird wrote:


This rubbish about 'real gamers don't care about the miniatures' is just an excuse. The components in this game failed to deliver. It doesn't make the game a write-off but I'm tired of hearing people say it doesn't matter to them, with the implied implication that if I was any sort of real gamer it wouldn't matter to me either. It does matter. I play the game and I enjoy it but I don't enjoy it quite as much as I would if it had good quality miniatures, just as I would enjoy a film with a good script that little bit more still if it also had good cinematography or find a decent book that much more satisfying with quality prose.


Justin,
Just to set the record straight, I only wrote that I have observed that people who see themselves as strictly boardgamers have posted that they are more accepting of the miniatures than people who have more extensive miniature hobby experience. I thnk that's a fair statement.

I never said "real boardgamers." That and especially what you inferred was implied by that are absolutely unfounded and made up by you. I would never imply any such thing! There's no right or wrong here, only different expectations.

I believe that if Flying Frog wants to venture into the miniature hobby market they will need to rise to that branch of the gaming community's expectations. And if they don't, then they need to not raise expectations of that type of product.


I think that's also a fair statement, yes?

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Marc Bennett
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I hate to disagree with those of you saying that the lack of miniature quality is due to the KS rush but I have to disagree.

the process of making these miniatures is more or less mold injected plastic. so you have a 2 part mold, and a machine that injects plastic into the mold. these are separate so if needed you can switch to a new mold using the same machine.

now the big factor in determining miniature quality believe it or not is how much pressure the machine can produce. the more pressure the further into cracks the machine can push the plastic, and the fewer sprue connections you need to push the plastic to all parts of the model.

so the entire problem with the miniatures is due to the pressure of the molding machine, rather than any production delays. however as someone mentioned even GW started somewhere, and these miniatures are on par with early GW miniatures, its just in todays market they look sub par. the low pressure machines also produce miniatures with more parts than we are use too which many people have also commented on.

of course a higher pressure molding machine is more expensive, and needs higher pressure molds, which are more expensive to produce. I do hope the quality of FFPs minis improve, but I am not expecting it until well after the line is established (maybe 5+ years down the road all goes well)
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Adam Canning
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Klaxas wrote:
however as someone mentioned even GW started somewhere, and these miniatures are on par with early GW miniatures,


SoBs has significantly greater fine detail than early GW. The Original Womble Marines for example or the Necromundan Imperial Guard.

What it doesn't have is the level of deliberate exaggeration of detail and shape GW goes in for and which they have got more extreme about over the years.

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Johnny Truant
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FFP should have looked at FFG's minis to see what gamers expect. How hard is it to just follow what other companies do?

I mean, why the hell would you reinvent the wheel? Just do what FFG does. It's that simple.
 
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Frank Franco
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Ryuu wrote:

I believe that if Flying Frog wants to venture into the miniature hobby market they will need to rise to that branch of the gaming community's expectations. And if they don't, then they need to not raise expectations of that type of product.
I think that's also a fair statement, yes?


The problem is these miniatures dont meet "boardgamers" expectations either since:
a) they have to be assembled.
b) They are hard plastic (easier to damage when just thrown in a box)

Honestly they should have just stuck to the mini types they have in their other games.
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Bum Kim
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johnnytruant wrote:
BUT, full-color stand-ups (like Dead of Winter) would be better GIVEN the current quality of FFP's minis. They would much more adequately represent the game elements.


Are you being serious? You would rather have 2D standups than 3D minis? So you'd take the middle option in this photo below over the other two minis even though admittedly they aren't that detailed and painted poorly?

When I get my hands on Dead of Winter, you better believe that I'm replacing the standups with minis, probably Zombicide ones. I've never heard someone say that they prefer flat cardstock to 3D miniatures even if said minis are poorer in quality and detail.

Well, you're in luck because it's a heck of a lot easier to make your own cardstock standups to proxy in a game with miniatures than to find 3D minis to match 2D standups. Just scan the various monsters/heroes or find good images online, print and stick into a stand. Then you avoid all the assembly/paint time too. Or find alternative minis like I did (Chronoscope Reaper line has good, cheaper options or Wild West Exodus has incredible detail.)
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David Zelasco
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The problem that I have with the quality of the miniatures is that FFP has been touting that all of the contents of the Mine Cart pledge have a retail price of $1,600. Without increasing the quality of the miniatures or the durability of the plastic, it doesn't really feel like that price point is accurate.
 
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Ryuu wrote:
High Flying Bird wrote:


This rubbish about 'real gamers don't care about the miniatures' is just an excuse. The components in this game failed to deliver. It doesn't make the game a write-off but I'm tired of hearing people say it doesn't matter to them, with the implied implication that if I was any sort of real gamer it wouldn't matter to me either. It does matter. I play the game and I enjoy it but I don't enjoy it quite as much as I would if it had good quality miniatures, just as I would enjoy a film with a good script that little bit more still if it also had good cinematography or find a decent book that much more satisfying with quality prose.


Justin,
Just to set the record straight, I only wrote that I have observed that people who see themselves as strictly boardgamers have posted that they are more accepting of the miniatures than people who have more extensive miniature hobby experience. I thnk that's a fair statement.

I never said "real boardgamers." That and especially what you inferred was implied by that are absolutely unfounded and made up by you. I would never imply any such thing! There's no right or wrong here, only different expectations.

I believe that if Flying Frog wants to venture into the miniature hobby market they will need to rise to that branch of the gaming community's expectations. And if they don't, then they need to not raise expectations of that type of product.

I think that's also a fair statement, yes?

I was waiting for High Flying Bird to reply...
IMO, I don't think he did any differently than you did, Starla. I think he's going off of all the comments collectively from these SoB forums. There have been a lot of comments forgiving FFP because it's "just a boardgame, so who cares."
Well, at the prices they're charging and with all the talk of hobby quality, FFP must not be let off the hook. All the components in the game are of average/below average quality. If they don't address the quality issues, then SoB will tank after the honeymoon period is over.
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johnnytruant wrote:
The zombies are bad at doing what you say they are supposed to do.
Ok, now I REALLY feel that I got ripped off with this game. Because my zombies just stand there....still and silently. Even after I lovingly painted them. That's gratitude for you.
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Starla Lester
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ampoliros wrote:
Ryuu wrote:
High Flying Bird wrote:


This rubbish about 'real gamers don't care about the miniatures' is just an excuse. The components in this game failed to deliver. It doesn't make the game a write-off but I'm tired of hearing people say it doesn't matter to them, with the implied implication that if I was any sort of real gamer it wouldn't matter to me either. It does matter. I play the game and I enjoy it but I don't enjoy it quite as much as I would if it had good quality miniatures, just as I would enjoy a film with a good script that little bit more still if it also had good cinematography or find a decent book that much more satisfying with quality prose.


Justin,
Just to set the record straight, I only wrote that I have observed that people who see themselves as strictly boardgamers have posted that they are more accepting of the miniatures than people who have more extensive miniature hobby experience. I thnk that's a fair statement.

I never said "real boardgamers." That and especially what you inferred was implied by that are absolutely unfounded and made up by you. I would never imply any such thing! There's no right or wrong here, only different expectations.

I believe that if Flying Frog wants to venture into the miniature hobby market they will need to rise to that branch of the gaming community's expectations. And if they don't, then they need to not raise expectations of that type of product.

I think that's also a fair statement, yes?

I was waiting for High Flying Bird to reply...
IMO, I don't think he did any differently than you did, Starla. I think he's going off of all the comments collectively from these SoB forums. There have been a lot of comments forgiving FFP because it's "just a boardgame, so who cares."
Well, at the prices they're charging and with all the talk of hobby quality, FFP must not be let off the hook. All the components in the game are of average/below average quality. If they don't address the quality issues, then SoB will tank after the honeymoon period is over.


There's a history of misquoting, putting words in others mouths, and then trashing. He can disagree with me, and the that's fine. I have no problem discussing and debating, and I deeply respect and enjoy many of the bggeeks that disagree with me on a regular basis. I don't believe that everyone has to have the same opinion, much less my opinion. But the above stated behavior will be pointed out each and every time.
 
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David Zelasco
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Lexthilian wrote:
johnnytruant wrote:
The zombies are bad at doing what you say they are supposed to do.
Ok, now I REALLY feel that I got ripped off with this game. Because my zombies just stand there....still and silently. Even after I lovingly painted them. That's gratitude for you.


Did you read the text aloud from page 32 of the sealed rulebook? If you don't perform all of the steps properly, the zombies will not work as advertised.

There is an audiobook translation on youtube, if you like:



Just remember to read the disclaimer before playing the audio file around your zombie miniatures.
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AmanuJaku wrote:
Lexthilian wrote:
johnnytruant wrote:
The zombies are bad at doing what you say they are supposed to do.
Ok, now I REALLY feel that I got ripped off with this game. Because my zombies just stand there....still and silently. Even after I lovingly painted them. That's gratitude for you.


Did you read the text aloud from page 32 of the sealed rulebook? If you don't perform all of the steps properly, the zombies will not work as advertised.

There is an audiobook translation on youtube, if you like:



Just remember to read the disclaimer before playing the audio file around your zombie miniatures.
'sigh', I love shared sarcasm. You complete me.
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Jonatan Rullman
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Ryuu wrote:
One of the things I have admired about this company is that their expansions always add to the game a substantial way.


Wait, what? I have at least six or seven, probably even ten, expansions from Flying Frog here at home which are very, very basic and I only own two games from them. The Hero Packs for Last Night and A Touch of Evil are pretty much just a few heroes and a few extra cards. I'm not sure if that constitutes "substantial" to you but even if it does we can move on to the special edition sound tracks, or the other mini expansions which basically adds ten cards and sometimes one new rule.

I might point out that I really enjoyed Flying Frog games some time back but their customer service, quality control and the way that the games just seem like cheap ripoffs of earlier games that I have found out about more recently together with their very mixed graphics style has made me quite disillusioned about them.

That said, I had a look at Brimstone when it was on Kickstarter and it seemed very nice with a cool theme. The Only reason I passed is that I already have other similar games.

On a related note. The figures from A Touch of Evil I think are quite good. Not sure what people are talking about when they say FFP is new to hard plastics since I didn't know there was a soft plastics in board gaming.

Cheers
 
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