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Subject: Two Rebel Players - Viper's Den - Nonsense rss

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Arthur Dickie
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Does a player have to activate a unit? We got to a point in this mission whereby the Imperial player had to activate the units he had, but could not do anything useful with them. On his second activation (there were only 2 rebel players), the Rebel player was simply able to use his activation to use 2 move actions and some strain tokens to walk around the spent Imperial army - right out of the escape point.

It felt a somewhat anti-thematic experience. I've played plenty of these types of games, but the fact that, if there are only 2 rebel players, then each figure gets 2 activations seemed to lead to a situation whereby the rebels can put the imperials into 'zugzwang'. I don't think that it was a rewarding experience for either side.
 
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Jo Bartok
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You will have to make sure that you don't carry out the item for the heroes but rather reduce them both to wounded sides!... in our game the IP carried the objective in that mission towards the heroes and then the heroes won.
 
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Arthur Dickie
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That was not what happened. In fact, the Rebel guy (activation 1) had picked up the token at its starting location. A new round began:

1). The carrying player moved to the northernmost door and did some damage to it. (Activation 1)

2). IP players spends 1 of his three units.

3). The second rebel player moves to door and does some damage to it (activation 1).

4) IP spends the second of his three units.

5) The non-carrying rebel now goes first for the second activation. He blows up northernmost door.

6). IP spend final of his 3 units.

7). The carrying rebel player uses both his actions to move, walking calmly past the IP army. He then spends 2 strain to move a further 2 squares. This put him on the escape token.

8). A new round begins. The carrying player goes first and escapes.
 
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Mr G
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I am very likely to buy this game, but this is the second thread I have read where one side can easily win by taking optimal moves. The first was to do with Imperials rushing the control panel in turn one of the tutorial.

Can funky moves and deep 'gamey' thinking knacker the game flow in general?
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Jorgen Peddersen
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The tutorial does not seem to have been designed to be balanced as a game. It's a quick example that allows you to test out mechanics of the game. It should not be used as an example of the rest of the game, especially as it sees you ignore many rules (such as abilities that could stun opponents).

This one mission seems to be an example of one that can be broken when it is played in two-hero mode. The game is balanced for four heroes, but the rebalancing mechanics for this one mission make it quite easy for the Heroes it seems. It's only one mission out of thirty or so, and it appears that the others cannot be broken in the same manner. I would not let this sour your experience as you may not even see the mission in your own campaign, and it would not be as easy to break if you had more heroes.
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Arthur Dickie
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Clipper wrote:
The tutorial does not seem to have been designed to be balanced as a game. It's a quick example that allows you to test out mechanics of the game. It should not be used as an example of the rest of the game, especially as it sees you ignore many rules (such as abilities that could stun opponents).

This one mission seems to be an example of one that can be broken when it is played in two-hero mode. The game is balanced for four heroes, but the rebalancing mechanics for this one mission make it quite easy for the Heroes it seems. It's only one mission out of thirty or so, and it appears that the others cannot be broken in the same manner. I would not let this sour your experience as you may not even see the mission in your own campaign, and it would not be as easy to break if you had more heroes.


Except, of course, that this could also have happened in a four-hero game. The issue is that, by timing order of activating, the carrying player can go last at the end of one round, then first at the beginning of the next. He could, therefore get 4 movement actions (up to 16 spaces), along with an extra 4 spaces of movement with strain tokens (straddled across 2 turns). 20 spaces, without the opponent having any opportunity to respond, is a long way on these small maps.

In that game, by the way, my 2-square machine gun piece (I cannot recall the name of the figure) never got the opportunity to fire a single shot.
 
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Arthur Dickie
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fentum wrote:
I am very likely to buy this game, but this is the second thread I have read where one side can easily win by taking optimal moves. The first was to do with Imperials rushing the control panel in turn one of the tutorial.

Can funky moves and deep 'gamey' thinking knacker the game flow in general?


I'm not sure that much effort was required to come up with the optimal move either. I have to say that, if I have many more experiences like this (two out of the three missions I have tried so far have been garbage), then I may well not return to the game.
 
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Maxfield Stewart
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I will say that many of the maps are very small'ish when compared to the ability to double move (up to 8 squares) twice in a row (16!). Certainly in a two rebel player scenario they can really haul around a map if they don't need to interact as an action and the imperial player has no interrupts. I haven't played Vipers Den yet but that is unfortunate.

The movement penalty to move through figures seems light but I haven't played with it enough. Certainly preventing movement through enemey figures would break the game just as well. I noticed some missions however, seem well designed and take double movement into account or have other events that make such hooliganism harder to pull off.

I do wish the game came with /more/ missions. An easy fix would be to construct campaign decks that didn't have these in them. But the box comes with just barely enough to make the campaign (obviously an encouragement to buy more in the future).

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Jo Bartok
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fentum wrote:
I am very likely to buy this game, but this is the second thread I have read where one side can easily win by taking optimal moves. The first was to do with Imperials rushing the control panel in turn one of the tutorial.

Can funky moves and deep 'gamey' thinking knacker the game flow in general?


The issue here is - despite what FFG and the fanbois want to make you think: the game only plays best with 4 heroes - no other count.

Some missions have some flaws, but not too many.
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Richard A. Edwards
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fentum wrote:
I am very likely to buy this game, but this is the second thread I have read where one side can easily win by taking optimal moves. The first was to do with Imperials rushing the control panel in turn one of the tutorial.

Can funky moves and deep 'gamey' thinking knacker the game flow in general?

Having played dozens of missions, I am of the opinion that for the most part the missions are fairly well balanced.

What I see happen is that one side will make a better choice about strategy and in some cases win fairly handily. The other side then cries "it's broken!" and unbalanced.

I've seen the same mission said to be too hard or too easy for both sides!

A lot depends on other choices outside of the missions too. What Imperial Class cards does the IP have? What Agendas? What Villains? What heroes are on the mission? What class cards do they have? What items? What allies? What stage of the campaign is it? Did the Imperial player choose the right Open Groups?

I've seen a mission turn from a rebel loss to victory by simply pulling the right item out of a supply crate at the critical moment.

It plays well with any number of heroes, 2-4. We usually play with 3, but we've done 2 and 4 as well. The use of the Heroic and Legendary cards really work well, though it does change your choices in the game and you have to adjust strategy accordingly.

All this being said, the tutorial is just to help learn the mechanics and not, I think, meant to be a balanced game to be replayed. And the campaign missions are meant to be a story and experience as much as a tactical game. No one usually "wins" on a mission but rather one side usually gains more advantages than the other.

If you want a more solid tactical experience, with a more balanced view to winning and losing, you might try the head to head skirmish mode instead of the campaign.

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Robbie M.
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ionas wrote:
the game only plays best with 4 heroes - no other count.

Has this been confirmed or just a general concensus. I've not heard too many complaints other than Aftermath, as was mentioned.
 
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Richard A. Edwards
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roborob wrote:
ionas wrote:
the game only plays best with 4 heroes - no other count.

Has this been confirmed or just a general concensus. I've not heard too many complaints other than Aftermath, as was mentioned.

It's not true, just his opinion.

My group has played 2, 3 and 4 heroes and we really like them all. It is true they play differently since the mix of abilities, health, etc. changes. But it is not necessarily better to do one or the other, IMHO.
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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fentum wrote:
I am very likely to buy this game, but this is the second thread I have read where one side can easily win by taking optimal moves. The first was to do with Imperials rushing the control panel in turn one of the tutorial.

Can funky moves and deep 'gamey' thinking knacker the game flow in general?

Yes, this can happen. It happened a lot in Descent, and I'm seeing it happen a lot in IA. Not really sure what you can do about it though, either you like it/accept it, or play a different game (like the Skirmish mode, doesn't have as much of that in it, as is lots more fun).

-shnar
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Jo Bartok
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SirRoke wrote:
roborob wrote:
ionas wrote:
the game only plays best with 4 heroes - no other count.

Has this been confirmed or just a general concensus. I've not heard too many complaints other than Aftermath, as was mentioned.

It's not true, just his opinion.

My group has played 2, 3 and 4 heroes and we really like them all. It is true they play differently since the mix of abilities, health, etc. changes. But it is not necessarily better to do one or the other, IMHO.


IT IS just my opinion. Yes.

But then you will have different drawbacks and benefits from playing with a lower set of heroes. In this case it seems - cause you are CARRYING the objective - that you have benefits.
I can't imagine playing Mak + X and doing Mak's side mission very well. Look at his side mission if you care. The tutorial showing 4 heroes shows you, IMHO, that this is still, the best amount of heroes. The only reason to let the game scale to 2 heroes is marketing towards mainstream. There is absolutely no problem controlling 2-3 heroes per player. In our campaign we had moving seats/players and sometimes one human player controlled 4 heroes.

The scaling is much better than in D1E and D2E, but it still - imho - has issues. See the other threads about strain, but then there is map control, stat-checks (you can have a wider distribution and have experts for this and that) and sacrifices (e.g. if you know that the IP has to wound 4 heroes and are activating a wounded hero you can play differently, not entirely but to a certain degree). Then there is "overkill" damage that you eat into the stats when playing with fewer stronger heroes. Hero abilities and synergies that you miss out, etc.

So it is not "just my opinion" - it is mostly my opinion, no question, but there are a few scaling issues still and my guess is the game plays much better with 4 than with 2 heroes. Maybe though, the scaling as been improved insofar that playing the game with 3 heroes or 4 isn't that much of a difference.

So it might be just my opinion but at the same time I could still be right. I am not sure about the "stats" that SirRoke's party pulled of, but despite us swapping the IP around and trying to win as the IP all the time the heroes (Jedi, Wookie, Scoundrel, Sniper) won ALL the missions but the final mission. I want to see that (or even winning ALL missions including the final mission) to be achieved by a 2 hero group.

As for confirmation. Lookup the other threads that deal with scaling issues. There are for sure some in a few missions.
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Not sure if it was designed that way, but I can say it wasn't beta-tested that way. Beta testers have tried all different scenarios (2, 3, 4 heroes).

-shnar
 
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Richard A. Edwards
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ionas wrote:
IT IS just my opinion. Yes.
...
So it is not "just my opinion"

I love when you disagree with yourself. Keeps me from having to do it.
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Jo Bartok
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I am fine not seeing things only black and white; at least I don't ignore a whole thread of replies to state the obvious wrong /again/
 
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Brandon Aeschleman
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I have found the game most enjoyable with 3 players. 1 Imperial player, and 2 Hero players, playing 2 heroes apiece. It keeps everyone active in the game (When 4 players are playing 1 hero apiece there is a lot of down time between them), and provides a good challenge for both sides. Even if I was playing with 1 other player, I would still encourage them to run 4 heroes. This is an opinion and formed after never actually playing a game with less than 4...
 
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Arthur Dickie
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This seems to have turned into a - what's best - 4,3 or 2 players, thread.

I don't think it makes any difference in this mission.

The issue is that a hero, by timing things correctly, can take 4 lots of movement actions (and 2 lots of strain movement) without the IP player having any opportunity to respond. This is debilitating to the IP player.

At the same time, the win was not satisfying for the Rebels.

 
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Jo Bartok
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But in fact it has to do a lot with player count as once you take the objective and run, then you don't have to drop it cause you die interim but can run through thanks to the health boost.

On the other hand the mission were one hero controls an ATST and is consumed by that leaves you with only one hero to exhaust skill and item cards and very many IP troops.

If in our 4h game the IP didn't play stupid there had not been the chance of heroes simply outrunning and finishing the game!
 
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Jo Bartok
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late for dinner wrote:
I have found the game most enjoyable with 3 players. 1 Imperial player, and 2 Hero players, playing 2 heroes apiece. It keeps everyone active in the game (When 4 players are playing 1 hero apiece there is a lot of down time between them), and provides a good challenge for both sides. Even if I was playing with 1 other player, I would still encourage them to run 4 heroes. This is an opinion and formed after never actually playing a game with less than 4...


I do totally agree (love the 2 rebel players / 4 hero setup) but can find/imagine peeps enjoying their attachment to exactly one hero... So it be GREAT if it made zero balance impact if played with 4, 3 or 2 heroes. Also for newcomers it is quite hard to play 4 or even 3 heroes. I really hope that a 3 hero gsme is worth it at least (cause back then our 3h D2E campaign sucked heavily...) - it seems tge natural fit for 3 rebel players.
 
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Tom Davis
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SirRoke wrote:
roborob wrote:
ionas wrote:
the game only plays best with 4 heroes - no other count.

Has this been confirmed or just a general concensus. I've not heard too many complaints other than Aftermath, as was mentioned.

It's not true, just his opinion.

My group has played 2, 3 and 4 heroes and we really like them all. It is true they play differently since the mix of abilities, health, etc. changes. But it is not necessarily better to do one or the other, IMHO.


Richard, what does the O in your IMHO stand for? Cause if it's opinion, like I think it is, it means what you wrote also isn't true. It's just your opinion.
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Arthur Dickie
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ionas wrote:
But in fact it has to do a lot with player count as once you take the objective and run, then you don't have to drop it cause you die interim but can run through thanks to the health boost.

In the other hand the mission were ine hero controls an ATST and is condumed by that leaves you with only one hero to exhaust skill and item cards and very many IP troops.

If in our 4h game tge IP didn't play stupid there had not been the chance of heroes simply outrunning and finishing the game!


I'm not sure I followed much of that.
 
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Arthur Dickie
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td3865 wrote:
SirRoke wrote:
roborob wrote:
ionas wrote:
the game only plays best with 4 heroes - no other count.

Has this been confirmed or just a general concensus. I've not heard too many complaints other than Aftermath, as was mentioned.

It's not true, just his opinion.

My group has played 2, 3 and 4 heroes and we really like them all. It is true they play differently since the mix of abilities, health, etc. changes. But it is not necessarily better to do one or the other, IMHO.


Richard, what does the O in your IMHO stand for? Cause if it's opinion, like I think it is, it means what you wrote also isn't true. It's just your opinion.


I'm not sure that Richard was claiming that his view was 'true', so I see no inconsistency in his statement.

The crucial thing is that it is clearly better to crack open one's boiled egg at the pointy end, as I'm sure that Richard does (and as do I), than at the fat end. I don't understand why everyone does not get this.
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Jo Bartok
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td3865 wrote:
SirRoke wrote:
roborob wrote:
ionas wrote:
the game only plays best with 4 heroes - no other count.

Has this been confirmed or just a general concensus. I've not heard too many complaints other than Aftermath, as was mentioned.

It's not true, just his opinion.

My group has played 2, 3 and 4 heroes and we really like them all. It is true they play differently since the mix of abilities, health, etc. changes. But it is not necessarily better to do one or the other, IMHO.


Richard, what does the O in your IMHO stand for? Cause if it's opinion, like I think it is, it means what you wrote also isn't true. It's just your opinion.


IMHO means in my humble opinion.
Everything here unless backed by huge statistics and third variable control IF possible is opinion.

Claiming that somthing isn't true is mostly a rethoric way of legitimating the own contrasting position.

/hug!
 
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