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Marvel Dice Masters: Uncanny X-Men» Forums » Rules

Subject: Can you pay for a global but not be able to fufill it? rss

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Dustin White
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Ok, noob question. This sparked a heated debate with me and 2 of my friends. Mr. Sinisters cards read,

"Pay (Lightning,Lightning). Each player chooses one of his characters to take 3 damage."

If my opponent doesn't have any characters on the field, can he still pay for this and make me damage my characters? Even though he doesn't have anything to damage on his side?

My opinion is that if he can't fulfill the global, he can't use it. Just like if I was to pay for Prof. X's global with a mask to move 2 sidekick dice from my used pile to my prep area, if the sidekick dice aren't there, I can't use that mask to pay for the global as I can't target the sidekick dice.

My friends argument is that it says "Pay (Lightning,Lightning)." Period. He paid for it, it has to happen. Oh, and I can't target any of my characters, therefore I don't have to do any damage to anything because I don't HAVE anything there.

Any opinions on this would be most welcome as it is a very heated debate and I would like to either make clarification so we can continue playing or to make an apology to my friend.

Thank you.
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Brook Gentlestream
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On a personal level, I would agree with your interpretation. I would have preferred if the game worked this way as it would have made a lot of rulings much more clear cut. However, the rules team sort of ruled on this issue already -- the game uses a "fulfill everything you can" golden rule.

The original question I believe had to do with Thrown Car, and whether or not you can use it if you only have one character since it says to choose two characters to receive +1A. When you play this action, you choose two characters if possible, or as many as possible if you can't.

I think this interpretation would work for your situation as well. He must choose a character (if possible), and if not, he must fulfill as many of the conditions as he is able to. Not being able to fulfill all the conditions doesn't prohibit from still performing the action.
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You can't handle the truth?
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I agree with the above. I also want to add that for professor X, he says "up to 2 Sidekicks" so he could be used either way.
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Dustin White
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So what you are saying is that if i'm running Iron Man, Inventor which says:

"Pay (Shield) to redirect 1 damage from you to one of your characters"

I can pay that shield and redirect the damage to a non-existent character. I paid for the cost, I am therefore fulfilling most of the requirements, but I don't have a character so the damage just floats away?

This is a horrible rule if it's the way you say it is then because it allows you to pay for things, and fulfill them to the best that you can and not suffer any drawbacks.

Just doesn't make sense to me. One more thing, do you happen to have a link to the discussion where the question was answered previously? I have been searching for almost 2 hours and can't find any clarification on this. There are a lot of questions for these rules, yet I am unable to find anything online, and lord knows the rulebook isn't helping anything.

Thanks for the quick reply too.
 
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Dustin White
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Ok, Prof. X was a bad example. Still a little heated on the debate and looking for answers.
 
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Waspinator
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http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16...
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Brook Gentlestream
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Dwhite2580 wrote:
"Pay (Shield) to redirect 1 damage from you to one of your characters"

I can pay that shield and redirect the damage to a non-existent character. I paid for the cost, I am therefore fulfilling most of the requirements, but I don't have a character so the damage just floats away?


Come on, I'm trying to help. Don't fight me just for the sake of picking a fight.

With Iron Man's global, uou can pay (shield) to redirect 1 damage from to one of your characters. It doesn't say "prevent 1 damage and inflict 1 damage to one of your characters", it says "redirect", which is a very specific mechanic. If you don't have a character, then you can't redirect damage to him. So you don't. Resolve everything else but that. In this case, there's nothing else to resolve so you basically waste the (shield).

It's not about interpreting stuff so they don't have disadvantages, it's just that the game (and apparently the rules team) doesn't care whether effects are advantages or disadvantages -- only whether they are possible to resolve or not.

Iron Man's global works exactly the way you think it should, for all the reasons that sort of make sense. You don't have to invent absurd rulings for common situations. (The current rulings on uncommon situations are absurd enough.)

Mr Sinister says each player chooses a character to take 3 damage. You're opponent can't, because he doesn't have a character. You can. The action resolves as much as possible. Your character takes 3 damage and his doesn't.

Nothing can really prevent someone from using a global, but if you don't use it at the proper time or in the proper situation, it won't have its full effect and in most cases won't have any effect at all. For example, you can't resolve Iron Man's global when you aren't taking damage but that doesn't really stop you from using it and wasting the (shield) if you really wanted to. Likewise, if Iron Man's global did other stuff too (which it doesn't), then you might still want to use it when you weren't taking damage so you can get that other effect.

Globals, once triggered, resolve as much as possible. It's not a judgement, it's not a cheat, I'm not taking sides between you and your friend. You don't have to take it personally. It's just a really annoying precedent set by the rules team, and we can hate it together and still enjoy playing.

I would prefer a ruling that says "if the effect can't resolve exactly as written on the card in its entirety, then the effect can't be triggered at all" but it doesn't seem like this game works that way based on the ruling provided in the link above.

Again, this is based mostly on my interpretation based on the ruling linked above, but I think its the standard viewpoint from everything we've heard to date. The "everything must resolve as it is on the card" political party took a bullet to the head when that ruling came out, leaving the "resolve as much as possible" party in totalitarian control of the Dice Masters state.
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Scott Hill
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To complicate matters, the DMRulesTeam contradict both themselves and the actual Prof X card text in the following thread:

http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=17...

In which they state:

"If there were 0 Sidekicks in my Used Pile, and I had exactly 1 in my Reserve Pool on a Mask face, I couldn't use Professor X's ability - there would be no viable selections for the ability."
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Scorpion0x17 wrote:
To complicate matters, the DMRulesTeam contradict both themselves and the actual Prof X card text in the following thread:

http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=17...

In which they state:

"If there were 0 Sidekicks in my Used Pile, and I had exactly 1 in my Reserve Pool on a Mask face, I couldn't use Professor X's ability - there would be no viable selections for the ability."
How did I miss this? Did my brain block the traumatic experience?

Has someone already asked for clarification? I hope so, because I only did now, and it can take a while for answers.
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Brook Gentlestream
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crambaza wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote:
To complicate matters, the DMRulesTeam contradict both themselves and the actual Prof X card text in the following thread:

http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=17...

In which they state:

"If there were 0 Sidekicks in my Used Pile, and I had exactly 1 in my Reserve Pool on a Mask face, I couldn't use Professor X's ability - there would be no viable selections for the ability."
How did I miss this? Did my brain block the traumatic experience?

Has someone already asked for clarification? I hope so, because I only did now, and it can take a while for answers.


Before you perform the action, there are no sidekick dice in your Used Pile for you to move. The die from your Reserve pile isn't moved to the Used pile until the end of the action, so there are still no dice in your used pile when the action resolves.

I think that's all they were trying to clarify.


edit: Yes, they were simply providing an example to reinforce and clarify this statement: "Reminder that if you're using a Mask face on a Sidekick Die to pay for this ability, you may not select that Sidekick Die to move to your Prep Area with Professor X's Global Ability."


edit: "Like all Globals Abilities, you may use it as many times as you like as long as you have the ability to pay for it and there are legal targets." Okay, this contradicts what I was saying about voluntarily wasting the (shield), but it doesn't actually change anything else that's relevant.
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Dustin White
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Oh, don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to pick a fight, I just want to make sure i'm understanding the rules completely so we can play the game right at my house and not be confused when going to a tourney.

In your second edit you stated, "Like all Globals Abilities, you may use it as many times as you like as long as you have the ability to pay for it and there are legal targets."

Wouldn't this stand true for Mr. Sinister too?

"Each player chooses one of his characters to take 3 damage."

If they don't have a character, there isn't a legal target to fulfill that global right?

Again, not trying to start anything, just wanting clarification. I agree wholeheartedly that there isn't enough info out there for all of the uncommon situations, and the info that is out there is confusing as all get out. Has there been any discussion about a revised rule list somewhere? The rulebook really isn't worth that much, especially when it comes to these "Uncommon" situations.

Thank you all for the help, it's been most appreciated.
 
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Roscoe Simmons
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Scorpion0x17 wrote:
To complicate matters, the DMRulesTeam contradict both themselves and the actual Prof X card text in the following thread:

http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=17...

In which they state:

"If there were 0 Sidekicks in my Used Pile, and I had exactly 1 in my Reserve Pool on a Mask face, I couldn't use Professor X's ability - there would be no viable selections for the ability."



ok they stated you can't pay with a mask in the reserve pool to buy something that doesn't exist. how is this a contradiction of a purchase.
 
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Roscoe Simmons
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To simplify the original question, your asking can a person pay Bolts to damage a persons characters if they do not have any and it states a player must choose a character to take damage.

the answer is yes he can if an effect is directed to characters and no character exist then the action dont take place for that player.

ok here is something to help with your answer.
Reckless Melee – Basic Action Card:
you have this action die and roll it. you have no characters and use the di and it states 1 damage to each character ( including yours )

so its the same thing really if you have no characters and use this di your not effected even if your opponent is.


 
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Scott Hill
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Dragon4201976 wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote:
To complicate matters, the DMRulesTeam contradict both themselves and the actual Prof X card text in the following thread:

http://www.wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=17...

In which they state:

"If there were 0 Sidekicks in my Used Pile, and I had exactly 1 in my Reserve Pool on a Mask face, I couldn't use Professor X's ability - there would be no viable selections for the ability."



ok they stated you can't pay with a mask in the reserve pool to buy something that doesn't exist. how is this a contradiction of a purchase.

You're not 'purchasing' anything when you use the Professor X global ability.

You are paying 1 mask to move "up to" 2 sidekicks from Used to Prep.

It is that "up to" that they are contradicting.
 
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Scott Hill
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Dragon4201976 wrote:
To simplify the original question, your asking can a person pay Bolts to damage a persons characters if they do not have any and it states a player must choose a character to take damage.

the answer is yes he can if an effect is directed to characters and no character exist then the action dont take place for that player.

ok here is something to help with your answer.
Reckless Melee – Basic Action Card:
you have this action die and roll it. you have no characters and use the di and it states 1 damage to each character ( including yours )

so its the same thing really if you have no characters and use this di your not effected even if your opponent is.



Actually, Wizkids have stated that an ability must have a valid target for you to be able to use it.

Quote:
For ... abilities ... there must ... be a legal target.

See: http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1676&p...
 
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You can't handle the truth?
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Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Dragon4201976 wrote:
To simplify the original question, your asking can a person pay Bolts to damage a persons characters if they do not have any and it states a player must choose a character to take damage.

the answer is yes he can if an effect is directed to characters and no character exist then the action dont take place for that player.

ok here is something to help with your answer.
Reckless Melee – Basic Action Card:
you have this action die and roll it. you have no characters and use the di and it states 1 damage to each character ( including yours )

so its the same thing really if you have no characters and use this di your not effected even if your opponent is.



Actually, Wizkids have stated that an ability must have a valid target for you to be able to use it.

Quote:
For ... abilities ... there must ... be a legal target.

See: http://wizkidseventsystem.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1676&p...
And they cleared up that the legal target must be declared before you pay for the ability, but if it is gone after you pay for it, that's okay.

So, while I wouldn't have done it that way, it is still a clean system, and I can get 100% behind that.
 
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