Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
25 Posts

Star Wars: Imperial Assault» Forums » Rules

Subject: Do blocks cancel out damage caused by surge icons? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Karl Fritz
United States
Rochester
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If the defender rolls two block icons, and the attacker rolls two surge icons (attacker gets +1 damage for each surge rolled). What is the result? Blocks don't cancel out surges, so I'm thinking the result it two hits.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The damage from surge abilities is added to your total prior to calculating damage, so the defender's blocks can cancel out such a surge ability.

Note that each surge ability can only be used once per attack. The figure in your example would need two surge abilities that both add extra damage for two surges to become two damage. They would still both be blocked, though, so you might choose different abilities to use instead.

Take a look at the attack steps in the RRG for more info.
3 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Karl Fritz
United States
Rochester
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yep, like Descent, the surge ability can only be used once. I was just playing the tutorial . Thanks for the quick reply!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jo Bartok
Germany
Zwingenberg
Hessen
flag msg tools
Interaction leads to Immersion.
badge
Immersion leads to Fun.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Like in Descent 2nd Edition. Yes.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next Total Solar Eclipse holiday in 2024 in USA? See you there!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Also note the attack steps in the Rules Reference Guide. All rolls are known before the imperial player attacker decides how to spend to surges.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jo Bartok
Germany
Zwingenberg
Hessen
flag msg tools
Interaction leads to Immersion.
badge
Immersion leads to Fun.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
before "any" player decides to spend.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry Schneider
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Clipper wrote:
The damage from surge abilities is added to your total prior to calculating damage, so the defender's blocks can cancel out such a surge ability.

Note that each surge ability can only be used once per attack. The figure in your example would need two surge abilities that both add extra damage for two surges to become two damage. They would still both be blocked, though, so you might choose different abilities to use instead.

Take a look at the attack steps in the RRG for more info.

Can you clarify this for me? I'm a newbie to the game and have never played Descent.

It's unclear to me what you can do with excess surges.

Suppose an attacker rolls 3 hits and 3 surges. The defender rolls 3 blocks and 1 evade. There are 0 hits, but can you still use the surges to add hits (if the attacker has that surge ability) or can you still use the surges to recover strain? In other words, if the attacker doesn't have the +Hit surge ability, can you still spend the surge for other effects (such as spending 1 surge to recover 1 strain)? This is really confusing.

And what if an attacker rolls 3 hits and 3 surges, and the defender rolls 2 blocks and 1 evade. Now there's 1 net hit and 2 surges. I guess I'm led to understand that you can't use both surges on the same surge ability, correct? But I presume you can spend 1 surge on 1 ability and the other surge on a second ability?

Thanks in advance for clarifying.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Gallo
United States
O'Fallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Suppose:

The attacker rolls two dice and gets: (surge, damage, damage) and (surge, damage).

The defender rolls and gets: (block, evade).

The final result is: (damage, damage, surge) and the attacker can spend that surge as desired. Specifically, the evade cancels one damage and the block cancels one damage.

Had the attacker rolled: (surge, damage) and (surge) the final result would be whatever the remaining surge was sent on, including a damage. The attacker spends surge as desired, within the limits of special abilities and effects, AFTER evades and dodges and blocks are applied (with extra blocks hanging around until the action is over).

As I understand it, if the defender had rolled a dodge, the defender cannot take damage but the attacker could send surge (2 in this example) for non-damaging effects.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry Schneider
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
martimer wrote:
Suppose:

The attacker rolls two dice and gets: (surge, damage, damage) and (surge, damage).

The defender rolls and gets: (block, evade).

The final result is: (damage, damage, surge) and the attacker can spend that surge as desired. Specifically, the evade cancels one damage and the block cancels one damage.

Had the attacker rolled: (surge, damage) and (surge) the final result would be whatever the remaining surge was sent on, including a damage. The attacker spends surge as desired, within the limits of special abilities and effects, AFTER evades and dodges and blocks are applied (with extra blocks hanging around until the action is over).

As I understand it, if the defender had rolled a dodge, the defender cannot take damage but the attacker could send surge (2 in this example) for non-damaging effects.

I understand that blocks block hits and evades block surges. What's unclear is whether surges can be used when there are no hits (or negative hits due to excess blocks). I suppose a surge ability that adds +2 Hits can be used since it adds hits to the result. But then I don't think you can use a Cleave ability or apply a Stun condition if you have no hits. And if the weapons card, say, has 1 surge ability to stun and another surge ability to add hits, can you spend 2 surges on that weapon to get both +Hits and +Stun? Or are you limited to using 1 surge ability regardless of the number of surges a roll produced?

Also, it was my understanding that a Dodge cancels the entire attack and, thus, all hits and surges are ignored.

The more I think I know, the more confused I become!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next Total Solar Eclipse holiday in 2024 in USA? See you there!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Each surge effect/ability can be used once per attack (unless ability overrides it), and you can use multiple different surge effects per attack.

Yes, do not overthink it!

(See the Attack chapter from the RRG for in which order things happen.)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry Schneider
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
a1bert wrote:
Each surge effect/ability can be used once per attack (unless ability overrides it), and you can use multiple different surge effects per attack.

Yes, do not overthink it!

(See the Attack chapter from the RRG for in which order things happen.)

I'm not even sure that chapter is accurate. For example, it explicitly says to calculate and use surge abilities long before calculating hits. Yet other parts of the guide state that you can't use certain surge abilities unless the attack resulted in a net amount of damage. So clearly, some surge abilities are used early in the attack while others can only be used later in the attack after damage has been calculated.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The rule is that Blast, Cleave and anything that inflicts a Condition (on either the user or the target) requires damage to be done for the effect to work.

Things outside of this do not need damage to be done. Heroes spending a Surge to Recover 1 Strain is an example of such a thing. Pierce and extra damage abilities are other examples.

Note that you can spend surges for extra damage abilities (including Pierce to negate blocks) before you see whether you have done damage for the other things you may wish to spend surges on (Blast, Cleave and Conditions).

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry Schneider
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Clipper wrote:
The rule is that Blast, Cleave and anything that inflicts a Condition (on either the user or the target) requires damage to be done for the effect to work.

Things outside of this do not need damage to be done. Heroes spending a Surge to Recover 1 Strain is an example of such a thing. Pierce and extra damage abilities are other examples.

Note that you can spend surges for extra damage abilities (including Pierce to negate blocks) before you see whether you have done damage for the other things you may wish to spend surges on (Blast, Cleave and Conditions).


Well, I'm a LITTLE less confused. Consider this specific example:

Gideon Argus is using a Vibroblade. He rolls 2 Hits and 3 Surges. The target rolls 2 Blocks and 1 Evade.

The net result is 0 Hits and 2 Surges.

1. Gideon can use 1 of the Surges to gain +1 Hit using the Vibroblade surge ability.

2. If Gideon uses that ability to add +1 Hit, he cannot use the second surge to use another Vibroblade ability (for example, the ability to cause bleeding). Correct? You cannot use 2 Surge abilities from 1 card, even if you have multiple Surges?

3. Now that he has a net result of 1 Hit from using the Vibroblade ability in step 1, he can still use the second surge and his own ability to stun the target. This is because he's spending the 2 surges on different surge abilities on 2 different cards. Am I understanding this correctly?

4. Alternatively, with the net result of 1 Hit, can he use the second surge to recover 1 Strain? I presume he can.

5. Suppose the defender rolled an extra block resulting in -1 Hits and 2 Surges. Spending the surge on +1 Hit still won't net Gideon positive damage against the target. So therefore, he can't use either surge to get the Vibroblade's Bleed or Cleave abilities. Correct?

6. But with 0 Hits and 2 Surges, can he still spend 1 Surge to recover 1 Strain?

Different example: This time, the weapon is Vibro Knucklers and the dice results are 1 Hit and 2 Surges and the defender only rolls 2 Blocks with no evades. Net results is -1 Hit and 2 Surges.

7. Presumably, he can use one of the surges on the Vibro Knucklers to get Pierce 2 (block 2 hits) and Bleed. Net result is 1 Hit and Bleed with 1 surge left over to spend on another ability or recover Strain. All okay?

8. On the other hand, say he used the Vibro Knucklers with dice results of 1 Hit and 2 Surges and the defender only rolls 3 Blocks with no evades. Now the net result is -2 Hits and 2 Surges. Applying that same Vibro Knucklers ability would net him 0 Hits. Therefore, he couldn't use the Bleed ability? Or is it only Blast and Stun that require a net amount of damage??

See why I'm confused? Perhaps some answers to each of the 6 questions will help. Thanks!

Adding this post script: Maybe I'm completely wrong about not being able to spend 2 surges to use 2 abilities on the same card. Because I now see the Force Pike tier 3 weapon which has 2 separate +1 Hit surge abilities. So I imagine you could use this weapon to spend 2 surges to get +2 Hits and therefore, possibly +1 Damage. Right??

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Your point 2 is incorrect. You can use all the Surge abilities you have access to if you can pay for them. The restriction is that you can use each individual Surge ability once only. So you can use the +1 damage and Bleed, or +1 Damage and Cleave 2, and so on. You cannot use the +1 Damage twice, though.

Point 3 is also incorrect. Gideon's Disabling Shot only works with Ranged weapons. The Vibroblade is a Melee weapon. Replace the Vibroblade with a DL-44 or other Ranged weapon and it would be correct to use one Surge on a damage ability on the weapon and a second one on Stun via Disabling Shot (assuming Gideon is Healthy).


1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry Schneider
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Clipper wrote:
Your point 2 is incorrect. You can use all the Surge abilities you have access to if you can pay for them. The restriction is that you can use each individual Surge ability once only. So you can use the +1 damage and Bleed, or +1 Damage and Cleave 2, and so on. You cannot use the +1 Damage twice, though.

Ah, I just added my post script before seeing your message. Okay, clear now about using multiple abilities on the same card but not being able to use the same ability twice.

So are you saying that all my other numbered points are accurate and that only #2 was wrong? If so, then I think I may be all set for the moment.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
schnel wrote:
So are you saying that all my other numbered points are accurate and that only #2 was wrong? If so, then I think I may be all set for the moment.


I also did some editing of my own. Point 3 was incorrect. I haven't looked at the others yet . I'll edit comments into this post...

4 is correct. 5 is correct.

6 is a yes. A hero can always spend one surge to recover one strain in any attack he makes. Only Blast, Cleave and Conditions require damage to be done.

7 is a yes, provided he used the Knucklers to make the attack.

8 is correct. However, as there are two surges, he could use both the '+2 damage' and the 'Pierce 2, Bleed' abilities and end up making the hostile figure suffer 2 Damage and make him gain Bleed.

OK, I'm done editing in responses now
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry Schneider
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Clipper wrote:
schnel wrote:
So are you saying that all my other numbered points are accurate and that only #2 was wrong? If so, then I think I may be all set for the moment.


I also did some editing of my own. Point 3 was incorrect. I haven't looked at the others yet ;). I'll edit comments into this post...

4 is correct. 5 is correct.

6 is a yes. A hero can always spend one surge to recover one strain in any attack he makes. Only Blast, Cleave and Conditions require damage to be done.

7 is a yes, provided he used the Knucklers to make the attack.

8 is correct. However, as there are two surges, he could use both the '+2 damage' and the 'Pierce 2, Bleed' abilities and end up making the hostile figure suffer 2 Damage and make him gain Bleed.

OK, I'm done editing in responses now ;)

Whew! Thanks. Can I slip in 1 more question (though maybe this should be a separate post). I was reviewing all the item cards to be clear regarding these surges. The Deathhammer card has a +1 Hit with no surge icon next to it. Is that a typo? Or does that weapon always add +1 hit to the results? Since it's the only card like that, I'm figuring it's a mistake on the card.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's not a mistake on the card. It has an inherent +1 Damage on every attack that doesn't cost anything.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry Schneider
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Clipper wrote:
It's not a mistake on the card. It has an inherent +1 Damage on every attack that doesn't cost anything.

Okay. THANK YOU SO MUCH for clearing this up for me!!

So were you a play tester for this game? Is that how you know all the answers? :)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
No. I'm just a rules lawyer. All of those issues are directly answered in the Rules Reference Guide if you know where to look. I just happen to have a lot of it memorised.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry Schneider
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Clipper wrote:
No. I'm just a rules lawyer. All of those issues are directly answered in the Rules Reference Guide if you know where to look. I just happen to have a lot of it memorised.

:-D
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry Schneider
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Clipper wrote:
No. I'm just a rules lawyer. All of those issues are directly answered in the Rules Reference Guide if you know where to look. I just happen to have a lot of it memorised.

Actually, I just realized you never addressed the Dodge question. Would you mind? Can the attacker still use Surges if the defender rolls Dodge? Or does Dodge cancel out the enter attack?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
schnel wrote:
Clipper wrote:
No. I'm just a rules lawyer. All of those issues are directly answered in the Rules Reference Guide if you know where to look. I just happen to have a lot of it memorised.

Actually, I just realized you never addressed the Dodge question. Would you mind? Can the attacker still use Surges if the defender rolls Dodge? Or does Dodge cancel out the enter attack?

Sorry, I didn't see it. Yes, the attacker can still use Surges. The only ones that will likely have an effect are ones like Recover abilities, though. Here's the relevant rule:
RRG - Miss wrote:
• When an attack misses, other effects can still be triggered
(such as using the Recover keyword). If the ability requires the
target figure to suffer one or more damage, such as Cleave, a miss
prevents that ability from being resolved.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry Schneider
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Clipper wrote:
schnel wrote:
Clipper wrote:
No. I'm just a rules lawyer. All of those issues are directly answered in the Rules Reference Guide if you know where to look. I just happen to have a lot of it memorised.

Actually, I just realized you never addressed the Dodge question. Would you mind? Can the attacker still use Surges if the defender rolls Dodge? Or does Dodge cancel out the enter attack?

Sorry, I didn't see it. Yes, the attacker can still use Surges. The only ones that will likely have an effect are ones like Recover abilities, though. Here's the relevant rule:
RRG - Miss wrote:
• When an attack misses, other effects can still be triggered
(such as using the Recover keyword). If the ability requires the
target figure to suffer one or more damage, such as Cleave, a miss
prevents that ability from being resolved.


Excellent! Thx.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Gallo
United States
O'Fallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
martimer wrote:
As I understand it, if the defender had rolled a dodge, the defender cannot take damage but the attacker could send surge (2 in this example) for non-damaging effects.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.