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Subject: Does Colossus implement all the rules correctly? rss

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Ted Kim
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Does the Colossus Java program implement all the rules of Titan correctly? I think I have the latest version 0.14.0.

 
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Lexingtonian
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As far as I can tell, it implements the rules correctly.
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Ray
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You mean the original AH rules, or the VG version of the rules?
There is a slight difference.
 
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Eric Hogue
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RayGuns wrote:
You mean the original AH rules, or the VG version of the rules?
There is a slight difference.


Has that difference been spelled out in the forums? I haven't seen it.
 
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Kris Giesing
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EricHogue wrote:
RayGuns wrote:
You mean the original AH rules, or the VG version of the rules?
There is a slight difference.


Has that difference been spelled out in the forums? I haven't seen it.


As far as I know, the only rules difference is that in the VG edition, the moving player rolling its strikes first is a suggestion rather than a hard rule. I personally think this was just a mistake in the reprinting.

- Kris
 
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Scott Lewis
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kgiesing wrote:
EricHogue wrote:
RayGuns wrote:
You mean the original AH rules, or the VG version of the rules?
There is a slight difference.


Has that difference been spelled out in the forums? I haven't seen it.


As far as I know, the only rules difference is that in the VG edition, the moving player rolling its strikes first is a suggestion rather than a hard rule. I personally think this was just a mistake in the reprinting.

- Kris

Does it have an impact on the game? The defender still gets to strikeback either way, right?

I'm not an expert with the game, and have the VG rules, but how does this rules difference affect anything other than potential aesthetics?
 
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Rahul Chandra
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You often have decisions on how to strike, so it would be different to know or not know what the active player did first and how well it worked.

simple example: your cyclops can strike at a gorgon and a centaur, each with two damage already. If the other player moves first, what exactly you do may depend on how much damage your cyclops takes.
 
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David desJardins
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I think the VG rules are supposed to be the same as the AH rules. In some cases they are less clearly written so it's not 100% clear that they mean the same thing. (There may also be some cases where they are more clearly written.)
 
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Ted Kim
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I can't be a 100% sure, but I was thinking maybe that Colossus didn't implement the case where a split gets aborted because movement is blocked. I thought I encountered that, but honestly I didn't really examine it closely enough to be sure.

I was thinking maybe there was a FAQ with "known issues" or something like that.



 
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David desJardins
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tedhkim wrote:
I can't be a 100% sure, but I was thinking maybe that Colossus didn't implement the case where a split gets aborted because movement is blocked. I thought I encountered that, but honestly I didn't really examine it closely enough to be sure.


If that were really true, then most Colossus games would crash before they end. It can't make you move when you have no legal move. People have played a lot of successful games with Colossus, it certainly has to be handled.
 
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Bruno Wolff
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As far as I can tell, all of the hard rules are followed by Colossus. The last mistake I found was over two years ago where lines of site weren't handled correctly in the desert.

I believe the intention of rules wording changes made by Valley Games, were intended to make things clearer rather than to change the meaning of any rules.

There are some cases where the colossus rules don't or might not match the errata and clarifications, particularly related to negotiations and concession timing. (I know of and have reported one case where you aren't given a chance to withdraw from the game when you should be able to.) I have never tested the case where you have no legal move or where only teleports are legal moves. I may have tested the case with a split move by normal means blocked, but a teleport is possible, but I don't remember what I found if I did.
 
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Kris Giesing
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FWIW, I am still finding rules bugs in Titan HD, after three years and probably 50k+ games played (among all users). The latest one is that Titan HD incorrectly treats any turn-1 attacker loss as a concession, even if the attacker moved and struck.

Titan has a lot of edge cases

- Kris
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David desJardins
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kgiesing wrote:
FWIW, I am still finding rules bugs in Titan HD, after three years and probably 50k+ games played (among all users). The latest one is that Titan HD incorrectly treats any turn-1 attacker loss as a concession, even if the attacker moved and struck.


Well, it is a concession, either way. The difference is whether the defender gets to recruit, right?
 
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Bruno Wolff
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If a titan is slain, but not all characters on a side, the points award could be different as well.
 
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Kris Giesing
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DaviddesJ wrote:
kgiesing wrote:
FWIW, I am still finding rules bugs in Titan HD, after three years and probably 50k+ games played (among all users). The latest one is that Titan HD incorrectly treats any turn-1 attacker loss as a concession, even if the attacker moved and struck.


Well, it is a concession, either way. The difference is whether the defender gets to recruit, right?


It's not a concession if the attacker loses because all units were killed. It's pretty rare for this to happen, I guess, or it would have been noticed earlier.
 
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Scott Lewis
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kgiesing wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
kgiesing wrote:
FWIW, I am still finding rules bugs in Titan HD, after three years and probably 50k+ games played (among all users). The latest one is that Titan HD incorrectly treats any turn-1 attacker loss as a concession, even if the attacker moved and struck.


Well, it is a concession, either way. The difference is whether the defender gets to recruit, right?


It's not a concession if the attacker loses because all units were killed. It's pretty rare for this to happen, I guess, or it would have been noticed earlier.

I admit, I'm not a rules expert with this game, but mechanically what would be the difference (other than the recruit option for Defender), since the defender gets full points either way.
 
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Bruno Wolff
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They don't always get full points either way. Occasionally people delibrately leave their titan off the board in an essentially hopeless battle so that their opponent only gets half points for most (all but the titan) of the legion.
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David desJardins
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I guess, in theory, you could leave your titan off the board as attacker on round 1 and still strike with your other pieces before the battle ends. It would seem a strange combination.

More common would be to charge forward with your titan and have it die on the very first round. That would also be a situation where your opponent gets less points than if you conceded.
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John David Galt
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As far as I can tell, Colossus plays standard Titan completely right.

However, for the two Badlands variants it assigns fixed battleboards for each hex that don't change during the game. I hope to fix that.

The other dozen or so variants that Colossus plays don't exist outside of the program, as far as I know, so by definition they're correct.
 
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Bruno Wolff
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I just ran into one tonight, though I think I reported previously. Warlocks, guardians, angels and archangels that are slain in a battle are not eligible for reinforcements in that battle even at the end, I was offered a warlock even though there weren't any available at the start of a battle where I successfully defended a tower.
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Will Pell
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I've played one Colossus game so far and noticed a tremendous difference - the board layout is completely changed. You can move onto the outer ring without having to fall through a block or start next to a tower. It was extremely bizarre.
 
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Rahul Chandra
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There are some situations where, when seeing something strange, one should ask "why did I see something strange" rather than "something is wrong because a strange thing happened". The posts above, and knowledge of many of the posters (which will come from any reading about Titan as several are well-known), should be enough to say that Colossus certainly doesn't have any giant gaping holes like that.

I suspect you are trying an alternate map, Colossus has quite a few. Testing the game again while writing this post (v 0.14), I'm not having any strange movement.
 
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Kelly Bass
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Yes, I suspect you may have played one of the many variants available on Colossus.
 
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Will Pell
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Okay, just did my second Colossus game (and I didn't pick a map, so if it's a variant map, then it's the configured default for any game against two different AI players), and encountered a rules glitch so severe, I had to quit the game because the computer wouldn't let me continue.

I already mentioned that this map is weird and wrong, but I didn't realize how weird - it actually doesn't have an outer path that goes around at all, there's actually a hex in the corner which has a block that doesn't face inward, so if you have a legion two spaces away from this hex (in a hex with only one exit), that legion can never move until you roll a 1. So I had that legion stuck forever, and then I had another legion that was X spaces further back along the same path, also having only one choice for where to go. That stack was seven high, so I split it, then I rolled the die and got X. So legion 2 was split into two legions, one of which has to move, but legion 1 was sitting on the only space that it could go to.

Under the official Titan rules, if I can't move a legion that occupies the only possible destination for two split legions, I'm allowed to 'abort' that split, going back to the original seven-high legion. (I don't think it's possible to ever be incapable of moving on the real Titan map, so I assume it's also legal to just say "I don't want to move Legion 1, so Legion 2's splits have nowhere to go, and I abort them back into Legion 2".) But Colossus doesn't implement the abort rule, apparently. The computer would not let me click "done", and when I hit "forced done", I got a popup box saying "must separate split legions". But I couldn't, and you can't Undo past the die roll. So the game was in a state where it could not proceed, and I could do nothing other than quit.
 
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David desJardins
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It all seems very unlikely. Maybe you should post a screenshot.
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