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Shadows of Brimstone: City of the Ancients» Forums » Rules

Subject: Codifying the Grit Rules rss

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Jee Fu
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When I first read the manual for this game, Grit was the easiest part to understand: re-roll any number of dice you just rolled. No problem. Half a year later, we have a number of confirmed specific instances where you either should be able to use it and can't, or shouldn't be able to and can. We also have a number of instances that are only semi-confirmed, and some that aren't confirmed at all and are still really ambiguous.

It's driving me nuts, at least with respect to this game, so I decided to kill 2 Hellbats with 1 Shot (even metaphorical Gunslingers are ridic).

In addition to the inability to give my players any kind of consistency on what can/can't be Grittically affected, I've noticed that the difficulty of the game is having trouble keeping up with us. We've added in most of the optional rules and have started purposely revealing multiple exploration tokens at once (3 at once is the best - the resulting fight is like its own mini-mission). This isn't always an option tho, so I've decided to codify the Grit Rules to something that is more restrictive, more consistent, and produces an experience that I feel is more inline with the intended spirit and challenge of the game. Here's what I've got so far:

You can Grit any roll..
1) whose number of dice is affected by your Hero's stats or the stats of anything your Hero is carrying OR
2) that your Hero has paid for the privilege of rolling.


This covers:
1) everything your Hero pro-actively does - tests, combat, shots, defense, armor, movement, damage, abilities, scavenging, etc. and
2) everything that your Hero must risk money and/or items to attempt - surgery, rituals, bandages, items that risk a discard via use, break tests, etc.

What these rules do NOT cover: town events (of any kind), mutations, injury/madness, any randomly determined results not affected by the rule above (encounter results, mission rewards, and Dark Stone Corruption included), monster rolls of any kind, travel hazards, rolling to see if there are travel hazards, level-up bonuses, etc.

I didn't come to this lightly, and I welcome any/all efforts from you guys on its refinement. I started with the original idea from these forums - that Grit is to be used for the Hero's sake and not for mechanics that are impartial - and then refined it further so that I could, in one breathe, lay down a robust ruling. It also has the side-effect of making the game harder and more balanced, because it doesn't let Grit-based Heroes have advantages that non-Grit-based Heroes can't hope to match in other ways. For instance under the current rulings, both types of Heroes can help themselves in combat (one with Grit and the other with boosts to raw power), but only the Grit-based ones can min/max their rewards, their results from various charts, and their fortune in general independently of their Hero's actions. This makes a Grit-heavy build much, much better than the alternative and whittles away at the challenge of dealing with the random whammy that FFP is so deliciously good at delivering.

After playing a few sessions under this ruling we noticed that healing, support, positioning, and general danger became way more important. It felt like we were all Level 1 again, but with more options, and that the Hero upgrades/gear designed around tanking and defense weren't automatically inferior to a bigger stick.

A few assumptions/clarifications:

1) I assumed that "Number of Scavenging Dice" is a Stat. Mostly it's 3, but sometimes its more/less depending on your abilities.

2) I ruled that Gear only counts as "affecting a Hero's stats or the stats of something your Hero is carrying" for the purposes of the Rule above if affects an individual roll of some type. For instance, a Dark Stone Belt Buckle gives you a choice of 2 rolls on the Mutation chart. These are 2 standard and separate rolls that you can't add dice to, and no stats are affected, so wearing the buckle does NOT give you ability to Grit Mutation rolls (in this case, either of them).

3) The Gambler's Dice add +1 to any roll your Hero makes. Since this piece of gear is thematically intended to actually skew fortune in your favor, rather than representing your Hero's ability to pro-actively overcome the results of bad fortune that has already happened, I'm ruling that you can apply this to literally any dice the game orders your Hero to roll. This item is only once-per-adventure and therefore doesn't have the same potential gravitas that Grit does.

Thanks for your time! Comments, questions, and refinements are all welcome. If I can make this better I certainly will because until a universally applicable official ruling comes down, this is what I will be operating under.

- Jee
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Ken H.
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Inspector Jee wrote:
You can Grit any roll
1) who's number of dice is affected by your Hero's stats or the stats of anything your Hero is carrying OR
2) that your Hero has paid for the privilege of rolling.

Brilliant! It's clear, easy to remember, and makes sense.

And just to be clear, you're specifically talking about stats or items that affect the number of dice, and not things that only affect the roll itself. So, for example the Tent item that allows you to add +1 to Campsite Events does NOT also allow you to Grit that roll.

Quote:
3) The Gambler's Dice add +1 to any roll your Hero makes. Since this piece of gear is thematically intended to actually skew fortune in your favor, rather than representing your Hero's ability to pro-actively overcome the results of bad fortune that has already happened, I'm ruling that you can apply this to literally any dice the game orders your Hero to roll. This item is only once-per-adventure and therefore doesn't have the same potential gravitas that Grit does.

I like this exception to the default ruling. The Gambler's Dice seem like a nice item, but I eventually found I couldn't justify the loss of carrying capacity, for a relatively trivial effect. (They must be some heavy dice.) But, allowing a hero to deviate from the normal grit rules is a much more powerful effect, and might actually be worth it.

One question: there is a Madness result (Delusions) that affects the number of dice you roll on future madness rolls. There is probably a similar result on the physical injury chart, but I can't remember for sure. It's a penalty, and should clearly not allow you to Grit that roll. Should this be enumerated as an exception, or is it sufficient to say that injuries are not part of the characters "stats".
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Jee Fu
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Rubric wrote:
Inspector Jee wrote:
You can Grit any roll
1) who's number of dice is affected by your Hero's stats or the stats of anything your Hero is carrying OR
2) that your Hero has paid for the privilege of rolling.

Brilliant! It's clear, easy to remember, and makes sense.

And just to be clear, you're specifically talking about stats or items that affect the number of dice, and not things that only affect the roll itself. So, for example the Tent item that allows you to add +1 to Campsite Events does NOT also allow you to Grit that roll.
Exactly.

Rubric wrote:
One question: there is a Madness result (Delusions) that affects the number of dice you roll on future madness rolls. There is probably a similar result on the physical injury chart, but I can't remember for sure. It's a penalty, and should clearly not allow you to Grit that roll. Should this be enumerated as an exception, or is it sufficient to say that injuries are not part of the characters "stats".
Good catch! I would say that the number of dice you roll for an Injury don't count as a stat, because there is specific chart that the roll pertains to - its about the total value rolled, not about the results of individual dice in the roll. This makes it semantically similar to Town Chart Rolls (which also cannot be Gritted under this paradigm) and semantically distinct from a Scavenge Roll which CAN, because the later has no such chart and its outcome is instead based on individual die values (just as a Test would be).

Thanks for the praise and for the critical eye.

- Jee
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Dwayne Hendrickson
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Who's or whose?
 
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Jee Fu
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Whose. Will Edit!
 
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Darryl Gardner
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I am totally on board with this way of thinking as I do agree that many things skew the balance on grit heavy heroes. It also makes thematic sense as far as injuries, mutations and happenstance as things that you don't have control over.

It's weird to think that your injury could change via grit. "I was about to get knocked out by a monster who was going to break my arm, so I headbutted it's hand and ended up gouging my eye instead."

Good call, Jee. It keeps it very clear. I will totally be playing this way from now on.

I would say the lucky hat which lets you re-roll any die just rolled OPA would also be an exception, as it's more of a 'lucky' item as opposed to grit.
 
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Jee Fu
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FencePost wrote:
I am totally on board with this way of thinking as I do agree that many things skew the balance on grit heavy heroes. It also makes thematic sense as far as injuries, mutations and happenstance as things that you don't have control over.

It's weird to think that your injury could change via grit. "I was about to get knocked out by a monster who was going to break my arm, so I headbutted it's hand and ended up gouging my eye instead."

Good call, Jee. It keeps it very clear. I will totally be playing this way from now on.

I would say the lucky hat which lets you re-roll any die just rolled OPA would also be an exception, as it's more of a 'lucky' item as opposed to grit.
Thanks! And agreed, I would lump the Lucky Hat in with the Dice, mechanically.

- Jee
 
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Robert Clark
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FencePost wrote:
I am totally on board with this way of thinking as I do agree that many things skew the balance on grit heavy heroes. It also makes thematic sense as far as injuries, mutations and happenstance as things that you don't have control over.
I''d say it makes the most thematic sense for the grittiest heroes to be the ones most likely to go down but come back stronger instead of dying on the spot.

I get the desire to have a simple to understand way of deciding, but I don't really see the association of grittiness with being the character actively affecting something with your skills. We already have skills and stats to represent that, Grit is the extra something that helps you succeed when you actual abilities come up short.
 
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Robert Clark
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While I agree the game could really use some balancing to make it harder, excluding injury and mutation (I purposefully left out madness as there aren't that many of those that can crush a particular character build as easily, although it does have an insta-death) from the grit rolls doesn't make it harder so much as more swingy. Increasing the chances of being randomly killed or rendered ineffective for the rest of the mission based on things that should be happening as part of the game.

The way to make the game more difficult is to do things to increase how often you get KOed and mutated so the players have to deal with having the drawback as opposed to leaving them uncommon (in the case of KOs) but potentially and more likely crippling (at least statistically speaking) when they happen.

So, really, taking Grit away from defense and willpower (and armor) rolls would have a much greater chance of making the game harder as a baseline as opposed to just making the really bad stuff happen more often. If you're looking at this as primarily a way of making the game harder, then that's what's needed - good baseline, constant difficulty, not random spikes of horrible. They might both average out to the same success level, but they play out very differently.
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Klutz
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I get your point, apesamongus, but I think disallowing Grit on defense, willpower and (spirit) armor as you suggest is explicitly changing the rules, whereas the Grit rules Inspector Jee is proposing are more of an interpretation than a change.

If the game ever gets too easy (haven't played it enough yet), I will definitely consider your proposed change as part of a "Hard Core" variant!



Inspector Jee, I will absolutely be adopting this ruling for Grit use in my games from now on!
 
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kell zilla
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We play:

If your hero does it (hit/damage, willpower/defense/armor, skill/stat checks, scavenge, etc etc), you can grit it.
If the game does it (leveling up, enemies, inj/mad/mut/corr, town/location events, "d6 hits for the mine collapsing", etc etc), you can't grit it.

This makes things reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally easy.
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John Paul Sodusta
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But Grit represents those lucky moments. Those last minute catches. Those heroic events. It makes for a great story telling (even for something so simple). For example, in my last game, the Marshall rolled badly for the Travel Preparations. The Saloon Girl used Grit for the Marshall to re-roll. The explanation was that the Saloon girl saw a subtle rip on the straps of the Marshal's saddle at the last minute. Thus, the Marshal mended it right there and then before leaving town which gave the posse a safe ride back into town.

I think Grit usable for all rolls is fine and consistently thematic. If you want to make the game more difficult, just shift the Threats levels up earlier.

 
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Robert Clark
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Exo Desta wrote:
But what you suggest entails a much more hands-on approach to rules-changes, where this is one area of the game that can really affect how much tension the game has - and is a relatively "simple fix."

I see your point though.
I agree with that, but I'm not actually suggesting those changes I'm just using them as an example of a change that can have a similar effect without the added negative.

The problem I have with the proposed Grit rules is that they take a part of the game that already isn't that great - the wild luck swings - and makes them more pronounced (by removing the element that exists for the sole purpose of mitigating those things), instead of going to the core of the problem. I'm taking the Hippocratic Oath version of rules changes - First do no harm.
 
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Jee Fu
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apesamongus wrote:
The problem I have with the proposed Grit rules is that they take a part of the game that already isn't that great - the wild luck swings - and makes them more pronounced (by removing the element that exists for the sole purpose of mitigating those things), instead of going to the core of the problem. I'm taking the Hippocratic Oath version of rules changes - First do no harm.
I understand this PoV, totally. It's bad game design to kill a character 1 in every 2000 times he takes a single step and then call that "hard," for sure. But that's not what I'm doing here. Coupla things to consider:

First, this isn't exactly the same situation. You have a lot control over when you get KO'ed (and therefore when you have to roll on the Charts of Doom), so comparing my idea to a poorly implemented rare-but-instant death mechanic isn't quite right in this context. I believe its perfectly OK to make "death" the final result of a single roll if its at the end of a long chain of decisions - and a lot of games do this. In GURPS for instance, all death checks come down to a single roll, most with far worse odds of success than 35/36. Yet no one would claim that game is hard because that roll is punishing; rather, the game is hard because that looming threat causes you to carefully consider your choices at all times. Put another way: unlike a game which attaches extremely rare, but punishing, events to common mechanics Brimstone attaches said events to rare mechanics. If you're getting KO'ed a lot, maybe you deserve to sweat.

Secondly, Grit doesn't exist for the sole purpose of mitigating instant death - this is self-evident. Being able to Grit the injury/madness roll was less than 1% of the "reduced difficulty" issues we were facing. If you wanted to put an addendum on my codification that says "Exception: Injury/Madness charts" then you wouldn't be losing out on much. The bulk of the issue, rather, was the ability for Grit-specced Heroes to control fate in ways that the other Heroes couldn't without sacrificing anything for the ability to do so. This is a Dungeon Crawl - if your dude can use their super powers to both kill monsters faster AND make the loot better, he's going to out-level the Heroes who can only do the former. Also, if the difficulty is balanced around said Heroes, then he's going to out-level the game itself. If you don't always have a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card lying around, items that heal you when you kill stuff become way more attractive. Put another way: I cared less about whether or not Heroes were dying and more that half the items/skills in the game were becoming extremely unappealing due our lack of concern for our Heroes' safety.

Thirdly, FFP seems to like the Random Fist of Justice. The skill-factor in these games really comes down to preparing for, and figuring a way out of, the Inevitable Randomly Spawned Awful Thing. It's a beautifully paradoxical kind of genius - that Skill shines when Luck goes bad. That's just their style - and I adore it. And Gritting the results of Charts really takes the teeth out of this philosophy. It's not the same as killing a character instantly with no warning - they would never do that. If the threat of single-fail death looms, you will know ahead of time if that's a possibility. If that's not the case, then whatever spawns will have a solution no matter how bad the situation may seem (Note that this solution might've been "buy more bandages in town next time").

Fourthly, you do make a good point. Sometimes you don't want to be able to lose your character without the feeling that you could've affected the roll that delivered the final straw. If that's the case, then as I said, you can add an exception for that and you'll still get 99% of the benefits. Frankly, I would rather use the Grit to avoid getting KO'ed entirely than horde it for the 1 in 36 times you get torn apart or go permanently bonkers.

I really appreciate the feedback I'm getting here, guys - especially dissenting posts. You can't have a discussion without those.

- Jee

After-Thought: Lucky Dice/Hat could also further mitigate this issue, even under my codification. This is awesome because previously Grit basically did what those items did, only for free. Now I actually have a reason for buying them.
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Jee Fu
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kellzilla wrote:
We play:

If your hero does it (hit/damage, willpower/defense/armor, skill/stat checks, scavenge, etc etc), you can grit it.
If the game does it (leveling up, enemies, inj/mad/mut/corr, town/location events, "d6 hits for the mine collapsing", etc etc), you can't grit it.

This makes things reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally easy.
Yeah - I actually started with this idea, but it broke down when I got to Surgery and other rolls that you had to pay for to initiate, but didn't necessarily represent your Hero undertaking a task himself. We felt that if your Hero is invested enough in the outcome of something to directly risk resources, then his/her Western Badassery should be able to affect the outcome. That's the thematic justification. The mechanical one (which is far more important IMO) is three-fold:

1) failed-and-never-again surgery/madness happens reasonably often unadulterated (compared to instant death) and has a lasting effect that can't be mitigated without Swamp Salve, a very lucky combo of events, or purposely dying and making a new guy.

2) the definition of "you hero does it" got pretty grey, pretty fast.

3) most of the mechanics affected by my 2nd clause happen in town - a place when you can't use the Lucky Hat/Dice, or most of the Grit generators. Heroes are on a much more even keel here, with respect to Grit so we saw no problem letting "The Town Game" involve more re-rolls.

- Jee
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Jee Fu
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Small Addendum: Last night we ran into Bandits whilst traveling, which instructs you to roll a D6 to see how many you defeat. The ones that you don't take your stuff and run off. Under my current semantic umbrella, this situation would be un-Grittable, as it is neither a roll based on your stats, nor a roll you chose to pay for. However, we felt that this was an example of a Hero clearly and pro-actively participating in an event and that this single roll was simply meant to abstract and distill the normal intricacies of combat down to something fast.

We were loathe to hack our newly minted Grit system for the sake of thematics, but since it was getting late we decided to be OK with using Grit in this instance, for the above reasons. It didn't do us much good tho, as we all rolled the same number we had before we used our Grit! I reckon this was prolly some kinda sign from the consistency gods, so next time I'm going to stick to my guns and disallow a Grit Roll here.

To wit, if you're wondering how my interpretation applies to Traveling Bandits then the answer is: you got whammied; prepare to receive thy lumps. Thematically, I interpret this event as a straight-up zemblanity - much like the Grit-Sucking Desert or the Burned-Out Bridge. You don't really get a choice to mitigate, but unlike the Desert/Bridge there is a resultant roll involved, and therefore a chance you won't get pwned (a good chance, actually).

- Jee

 
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A. Hominy Grit
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Quote:
2) I ruled that Gear only counts as "affecting a Hero's stats or the stats of something your Hero is carrying" for the purposes of the Rule above if affects an individual roll of some type. For instance, a Dark Stone Belt Buckle gives you a choice of 2 rolls on the Mutation chart. These are 2 standard and separate rolls that you can't add dice to, and no stats are affected, so wearing the buckle does NOT give you ability to Grit Mutation rolls (in this case, either of them).

I wish there was an official ruling on this. My group has been playing it so yes you can grit mutation chart rolls. Just the fact that the dark stone buckle exists makes it more credible that you can use grit on these rolls as it is a piece of gear/clothing that your hero wears to control the outcome. So why would you not be able to grit one of the rolls but you can grit an injury or madness chart roll? That makes no sense to me.

Quote:
2) everything that your Hero must risk money and/or items to attempt - surgery, rituals, bandages, items that risk a discard via use, break tests, etc.

You can allow and choose NOT to remove corruption or defend (grit willpower saves) corruption points to gain mutations. Some mutations are beneficial. I chose not to remove my corruption or grit willpower so that I would mutate. That was a choice/risk. I still rule in favor of being able to grit a mutation especially since you can spend money and purchase a buckle that allows you to roll 2 sets of dice to control the outcome.

On a side note, Grit isn't always easy to come by. I find most of the time I have none at all! The fact that you're lucky enough to have a Grit to spend when this situation arises should count for something as well. Just my 2 cents but I really wish there was an official ruling and explanation of this.
 
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Jee Fu
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dambr7 wrote:
Quote:
2) I ruled that Gear only counts as "affecting a Hero's stats or the stats of something your Hero is carrying" for the purposes of the Rule above if affects an individual roll of some type. For instance, a Dark Stone Belt Buckle gives you a choice of 2 rolls on the Mutation chart. These are 2 standard and separate rolls that you can't add dice to, and no stats are affected, so wearing the buckle does NOT give you ability to Grit Mutation rolls (in this case, either of them).

I wish there was an official ruling on this. My group has been playing it so yes you can grit mutation chart rolls. Just the fact that the dark stone buckle exists makes it more credible that you can use grit on these rolls as it is a piece of gear/clothing that your hero wears to control the outcome. So why would you not be able to grit one of the rolls but you can grit an injury or madness chart roll? That makes no sense to me.

Quote:
2) everything that your Hero must risk money and/or items to attempt - surgery, rituals, bandages, items that risk a discard via use, break tests, etc.

You can allow and choose NOT to remove corruption or defend (grit willpower saves) corruption points to gain mutations. Some mutations are beneficial. I chose not to remove my corruption or grit willpower so that I would mutate. That was a choice/risk. I still rule in favor of being able to grit a mutation especially since you can spend money and purchase a buckle that allows you to roll 2 sets of dice to control the outcome.

On a side note, Grit isn't always easy to come by. I find most of the time I have none at all! The fact that you're lucky enough to have a Grit to spend when this situation arises should count for something as well. Just my 2 cents but I really wish there was an official ruling and explanation of this.
You can, and should, do what you want.

This thread is very out-of-date and since its inception, many new things have come to light via content-releases, conversations with the Frogs, and simply playing the game. I'm still operating via my original method on a basic level, but enough ambiguity has been introduced to the game in the last year that those methods are no longer robust.

I allow Injury/Madness to be Gritted, because Jason Hill told me that was the intention. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to the things they say you can't Grit, but at least there aren't any other items/abilities in the game specifically for effecting the Injury/Madness charts so ... fine. I'm willing to believe that Mutations follow a similar ruling, but I think that said ruling is bad for the game (at least currently, many new expansions coming .. situation may change). Having the ability to Grit Mutation rolls makes Mutations more overpowered than they already are and devalues basically everything in the game that mitigates the bad effects of Corruption/Mutations in general.

Some characters aren't built for massive Grit generation, but most of them can be - and should be if you're trying to make the most effective character possible. I know Saloon Girls with Max Grit 6, who recover Grit on movement rolls of 1 or 6, and who recover Grit when they kill stuff. And they use Grit to ready their items, which in turn can be used to kill more things, netting them more Grit. They start with Max Grit because they always get a Void Vapor Injection - and why not? 1 Corruption Hit is nothing compared to 6 free Grit. Use one of those to take less Corruption down the line. Even if you mutate, you can just Grit it. Since Grit makes everything easier, this character's progression beats the pants off of non-Grit-builds. They get better weapons/armor faster because they lose less money/resources accepting and dealing with bad luck in general. This allows them to kill more monsters, thus starting the cycle over again. My point is this: the more rolls you allow to be Gritted, the more Grit becomes a one-stop shop for solutions to any/all problems. This undervalues non-Grit-solutions, which homogenizes the game. Play long enough this way, and every single player will be speccing their Heroes for Grit generation above all else because it's the most effective means of defeating any challenge. And this is fine, it you don't care that huge chunks of the game play options are being ignored.

Since FFP has yet to release a comprehensive ruling on what can/can't be gritted, you're basically welcome to do what you like. RAW, you can grit anything you want. I've been playing this game for 3 years, a lot. In my experience, Heroes tend to outpower the challenge of the game pretty quickly (by lvl 3-4) - and stacking powerful mutations are responsible for a large part of that. As a result, I tend to err on the side of "anything that I can do to put the bite back in the challenge".

- Jee
 
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A. Hominy Grit
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Well there will always be exceptions to the rule I guess. Not every saloon girl will have those items. In fact my rancher who's a showman (got the top hat) also acquired the crisp rose (grit on 1 or 6) and still rarely gets her max grit of 2! There are a lot of bad mutations so just because you decide "ehh I'll grit that one" doesn't necessarily make it any easier IMO. Plus you're stuck with whatever you just rolled after the grit unless of course you have the buckle. I see what you're saying but ultimately it really makes no sense to me to be able to grit on the injury chart but not a mutation chart.
 
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Nick Hughes
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I still stick to the original interpretation of Grit not being used to change Injury/Madness/Mutation rolls - it it has got this far then I take the "punishment" like the Hero I'm supposed to be (even Death if that is as fate decides).

But then I use the Hexcrawl tables which are a little more extensive.

Ultimately play it the way you want because you are the one who has to be satisfied with the gameplay to be able to enjoy your game.
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Jee Fu
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dambr7 wrote:
Well there will always be exceptions to the rule I guess. Not every saloon girl will have those items. In fact my rancher who's a showman (got the top hat) also acquired the crisp rose (grit on 1 or 6) and still rarely gets her max grit of 2! There are a lot of bad mutations so just because you decide "ehh I'll grit that one" doesn't necessarily make it any easier IMO. Plus you're stuck with whatever you just rolled after the grit unless of course you have the buckle. I see what you're saying but ultimately it really makes no sense to me to be able to grit on the injury chart but not a mutation chart.
You have more control over your mutations than you might think. There is a 1 in 66 chance of bullseye-ing the one you want under normal circumstances, but if you combine a buckle with the ability to Grit the dice it drops to more like 1 in 8. This because under normal Grit rules you can pick and choose which dice to re-roll, so if one of the dice comes up right but the other wrong you can just re-roll one of them. There are 3-4 Mutations that I contend dramatically increase a Hero's power: Prehensile Tail, Fused with Rock, Barbed Tail, and Eye Stalks (in that basic order). There are others that are just straight-up buffs too (Fangs). So if you're trying to get any one of those and you have a buckle + 1-2 Grit (or Tonic) then its basically a 50/50 shot that you're gonna get 1 of them every time you mutate (and of course, as you a acquire them the chances of further successes go down, but not below 1/8).

That's not even including all the various Tentacles that automagically give you a 3rd Hand by virtue of rolling a 12 at the Mutant Quarter. This too is less hard than you think, because of the Gold Ring (you already have the Top Hat for Showman).

Even if you're not trying to get a certain mutation, letting you Grit the outcome of mutation rolls basically means that there is no real danger of death in mutating. There is a 1 in 1,296 chance that an Injury will out-and-out kill you, assuming you have 1 grit to spend and don't already have Internal Bleeding (and again, assuming that you can Grit Injuries). This is chances of rolling double 1s, twice in a row. But the chances that Mutations will kill you - even if you have like 3 of them - given some Grit and a Dark Stone Buckle is like 1 in 160,000.

It's just something to consider. If you're ultimately OK that there is a path to "Functional Immunity from Death" in the game, and that it's very achievable in a relatively short amount of time, then that's a legit style of play. If the challenge for you is more about success or failure of the mission, and less about whether or not permanent death is a very real thing that might happen, then its OK to leave double-mutation rolls and double-1 Injury/Madness rolls as more of a Grit-drain than a catastrophe.

- Jee

 
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Joe Price
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Inspector Jee wrote:
This because under normal Grit rules you can pick and choose which dice to re-roll...

I actually look at grit as allowing you to re-roll any particular roll, not any particular die. Each attack or damage roll is a single die, but any rolls that are a combination of dice, such as a location event or mutation, is just a single roll, so all dice in that single roll need to be re-rolled. This goes a long way to preventing some of the shenanigans you keep describing Jee.
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A. Hominy Grit
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rpvt wrote:
Inspector Jee wrote:
This because under normal Grit rules you can pick and choose which dice to re-roll...

I actually look at grit as allowing you to re-roll any particular roll, not any particular die. Each attack or damage roll is a single die, but any rolls that are a combination of dice, such as a location event or mutation, is just a single roll, so all dice in that single roll need to be re-rolled. This goes a long way to preventing some of the shenanigans you keep describing Jee.

This is very true and how I play grit when it comes to rolling 2 different colored dice as with the mutation chart. It's technically supposed to be "one die" or roll so it's my opinion that you should have to roll both of them again if you grit it. If you have the Gold Ring however only then should you be allowed to turn one of the 2 dice into a 6. Also, using the buckle we play it so you can only grit one of the 2 rolls because you're rolling twice for the same thing. Hence, same roll just pick the result you want. But yes I do see Jee's point. I just wasn't playing it that way. Still, I wish there were more detailed official rules for these sorts of situations.
 
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Jee Fu
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Jason Hill commented on this very subject recently, with a somewhat concrete ruling. There are still questions unanswered, but what he says solves 85% of them. It also closely mirrors the conclusions we have come to in this thread, so grats to the community on a reasonably successful exegesis!

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1793180/gambler-gives-rulin...

- Jee
 
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Chris Cenobite
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We use Grit ONLY for character's tests and Defense/Willpower/Hit Rolls. We don't use Grit for changing damage or armor rolls etc. Damage is a random result of Hit Rolls, same with armor. Re-rolling everything makes no sense at all. Changing damage results using Grit is the same as changing Hellbats into frogs.
 
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