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Subject: NYTimes blasts NYPD back-turner cops for being the pussies they are rss

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fightcitymayor
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http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/30/opinion/police-respect-...

So you know whenever a Muslim individual does something bad, then you can count on right-wing media outlets to posit the idea of, "Why aren't the moderate Muslims standing up and calling out these fringe lunatics that are perverting the supposedly good name of Islam?!" Well today I hope Fox News has a few dozen real cops lined up to speak up and condemn the pussy antics of some of those fools in the NYPD.

And since when did police unions start playing the woe-is-me, petulant child, victim card? I thought that only "libtards" did that?

NYTimes wrote:
"Mr. de Blasio isn’t going to say it, but somebody has to: With these acts of passive-aggressive contempt and self-pity, many New York police officers, led by their union, are squandering the department’s credibility, defacing its reputation, shredding its hard-earned respect,” stated the editorial. “They have taken the most grave and solemn of civic moments — a funeral of a fallen colleague — and hijacked it for their own petty look-at-us gesture. In doing so, they also turned their backs on Mr. Ramoss’ widow and her two young sons, and others in that grief-struck family".

After Ramos and his partner, Wenjian Liu, were gunned down in their patrol car Dec. 20th, the NYPD’s union head Patrick Lynch slammed anti-police protestors along with Mayor de Blasio: “There’s blood on many hands tonight,” he said then. “Those that incited violence on this street under the guise of protest, that tried to tear down what New York City police officers did everyday.”

The Times called Lynch out by name in the piece, acknowledging police might have valid complaints about treatment, but not enough to carry out a campaign of “victimhood.”

"But none of those grievances can justify the snarling sense of victimhood that seems to be motivating the anti-de Blasio campaign — the belief that the department is never wrong, that it never needs redirection or reform, only reverence,” the piece continued. “This is the view peddled by union officials like Patrick Lynch, the president of the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association — that cops are an ethically impeccable force with their own priorities and codes of behavior, accountable only to themselves, and whose reflexive defiance in the face of valid criticism is somehow normal."
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Dave G
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Come on, FCM. Everyone knows that a public figure openly criticizing the police force and the cold-blooded execution of two cops in their car are basically the same thing. It's pretty much like de Blasio shot those cops himself.

shake

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Chad
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Except there is a bit more to the relationship than just the two cops getting shot.

There was

1)the de Blasio campaign that had a heavy tinge of anti cop to it (stop and frisk being a major point of contention)

2)Which lead to de Blasio flipping Bloombergs approach to the stop and frisk lawsuits and taking the plaintiff's side from the cops

3) de Blasio's comments about how he tells his mixed race son to watch out for cops (coming pretty damn close to calling them racists)

So the relationship was pretty much piss poor before the cop's execution. Now I do 100% think that turning your back on the mayor during a funeral is piss poor taste - there is a time and a place to protest - funerals - not one of them.

Further, the Police Unions need to pull back on their rhetoric too and actually engage with the mayor - having a toxic relationship for the next 3 years does no one any good.
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Chad Ellis
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I'm not expert on the campaign but what little I saw wasn't anti-cop. For example, there was an ad that cited his willingness to end stop and frisk and pointed out that the program had fallen primarily on people of color -- but that's pretty much an objective fact, based on the police department's own stats. De Blasio dropped the city's appeal to a judge's ruling on the program itself; I'm not sure where he's taking the side of plaintiffs against cops but you may have something in mind I'm not familiar with.

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Mike Stiles
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these threads always need a reminder of this;

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2014/04/adrian_sc...

Quote:
That was two years after he began secretly recording his bosses at the 81st Precinct as they illegally ordered their subordinates to manipulate crime data and meet certain quotas of arrests and stop-and-frisks.


Just so we have a reminder of what 'anti-police' means in this case.
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Dave G
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bjlillo wrote:
Well, he succeeded at stopping stop-and-frisk.

Quote:
Angry union leaders have ordered drastic measures for their members since the Dec. 20 assassination of two NYPD cops in a patrol car, including that two units respond to every call.

It has helped contribute to a nose dive in low-level policing, with overall arrests down 66 percent for the week starting Dec. 22 compared with the same period in 2013, stats show.

Citations for traffic violations fell by 94 percent, from 10,069 to 587, during that time frame.

Summonses for low-level offenses like public drinking and urination also plunged 94 percent — from 4,831 to 300.

Even parking violations are way down, dropping by 92 percent, from 14,699 to 1,241.

Drug arrests by cops assigned to the NYPD’s Organized Crime Control Bureau — which are part of the overall number — dropped by 84 percent, from 382 to 63.


What do these idiots think they're going to get out of this? I understand that the lack of fine income will hurt the city a little bit in the short term, but don't they realize that less enforcement of the minor offenses is actually what a lot of people want?

"Hey, I know! Let's stop harassing and fining citizens over inconsequential victimless crimes, that will really show them what they'd be missing without the police union!"
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Having spent a little time in the city in the late 90's/early 00's, I thought it was a great place to be a vistor/tourist. I hope one unintended outcome of the current situation doesn't turn out to be that the city is allowed to backslide into the cesspool that it was in the 1970's. Letting the small criminal stuff go is what will lead to a general decline in the quality of life, and can start to scare away potential visitors.

Just in case anyone has forgotten the mess that was NYC in the 70's, this wikipedia article sums it up pretty nicely...

The 1970s are regarded by some[by whom?] as New York's nadir. The city had become notorious the world over for high rates of crime and other social disorders. A popular song in the autumn of 1972, "American City Suite," by Cashman & West, chronicled, in allegorical fashion, the decline in the city's quality of life. The city's subway system was regarded as unsafe due to crime and suffered frequent mechanical breakdowns. Prostitutes and pimps frequented Times Square, while Central Park became feared as the site of muggings and rapes. Homeless persons and drug dealers occupied boarded-up and abandoned buildings. The NYPD was subject to investigation for widespread corruption, most famously in the 1971 testimony of whistle-blowing police officer Frank Serpico.

US economic stagnation in the 1970s hit New York City particularly hard, as trading on the New York Stock Exchange fell while the city's welfare spending continued. The city neared bankruptcy during the administration of Mayor Abraham Beame but avoided that step with the aid of a $2.3 billion federal loan. A statement by Mayor Beame was drafted and ready to be released on October 17, 1975, if the teachers' union did not invest $150 million from its pension funds in city securities. "I have been advised by the comptroller that the City of New York has insufficient cash on hand to meet debt obligations due today," the statement said. "This constitutes the default that we have struggled to avoid."[8] The Beame statement was never distributed because Albert Shanker, the teachers' union president, finally furnished $150 million from the union's pension fund to buy Municipal Assistance Corporation bonds. Two weeks later, President Gerald R. Ford angered many New Yorkers by refusing to grant the city a bailout, a decision famously summarized by the New York Daily News headline "Ford to City: Drop Dead." Ford would later sign the New York City Seasonal Financing Act of 1975 which extended $2.3 billion worth of federal loans to the city for three years.[9][10]

The New York City Blackout of 1977 struck on July 13 of that year and lasted for 25 hours, during which black and Hispanic neighborhoods fell prey to destruction and looting. Over 3,000 people were arrested, and the city's already crowded prisons were so overburdened that some suggested reopening the recently condemned Manhattan Detention Complex.

A rare highlight was the opening of the mammoth World Trade Center complex in 1972. Conceived by David Rockefeller and built by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey on the site of the Radio Row electronics district in Lower Manhattan, the Twin Towers briefly displaced the Empire State Building in Midtown as the world's tallest before being displaced in turn by Chicago's Sears Tower in 1973.

However, the financial crisis, high crime rates, and damage from the blackouts led to a widespread belief that New York City was in irreversible decline. By the end of the 1970s, nearly a million people had left since the '50s, a population loss that would not be recouped for another twenty years. The more fiscally conservative Ed Koch was elected as mayor in 1977.
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bjlillo wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
What do these idiots think they're going to get out of this? I understand that the lack of fine income will hurt the city a little bit in the short term, but don't they realize that less enforcement of the minor offenses is actually what a lot of people want?

"Hey, I know! Let's stop harassing and fining citizens over inconsequential victimless crimes, that will really show them what they'd be missing without the police union!"


New York was a much more dangerous place prior to the stop-and-frisk policing. Perhaps they're hoping it will return to that and the citizens will beg them to return.


I hope to God it isn't this. If a police force wants people to actually be hurt to make a point, then it isn't a police force.
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Yeah, if that's what they want, might as well disband the whole force and start over.
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Whatever happened to the idea that Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety?

'Stop and Frisk' is an unwarranted violation of people's civil liberties- it is an infringement on one's essential liberty to go about your business without harassment from the state.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for New Yorkers who are willing to worship at the altar of police authority just because they're fearful that if they don't suck up to Lynch and the police union the subways would stop running on time....

Darilian

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djgutierrez77 wrote:
Come on, FCM. Everyone knows that a public figure openly criticizing the police force and the cold-blooded execution of two cops in their car are basically the same thing. It's pretty much like de Blasio shot those cops himself.

shake

When some, if not many, good-apple cops start defending or even acting like they're defending bad-apple cops, something tells me that there may be other rotten-to-the-core cops among those supposedly good-apple cops.


 
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Koldfoot wrote:
I wonder what the average IQ of a cop is?


I wonder this whenever I see a car marked "NYPD Police."
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bjlillo wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
I hope to God it isn't this. If a police force wants people to actually be hurt to make a point, then it isn't a police force.


The mayor ran against it. Aren't the people and the mayor getting exactly what they wanted?


It? Pronouns! The Mayor ran against people being hurt? I'd say that's a safe platform for any candidate to run for. The Mayor ran against Stop&Frisk? It sounded like you were talking about a deliberate and coordinated effort to NOT punish crime when it happens in order to increase pressure for political reasons, and not simply stopping a policy that allows police to target people NOT breaking the law?
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Stop and Frisk is one of those things that has experts on both sides saying it did or didn't work. I haven't looked into the data so it's hard for me to judge.

But hang on a second. The whole premise of stop and frisk is a coordinated effort to harass "usual suspects" -- mainly poor men -- to reduce the likelihood that they, as a group, will commit crimes. Isn't that just total bullshit?

If the police were harassing me on a regular basis, putting me up against a wall and searching me without probable cause, I would consider that a gross violation of my rights. If that's true for me, then why isn't it true for someone who happens to be poor, or a minority?

There are lots of things the police could do that would reduce crime. That a tactic works is necessary, but not sufficient.
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bjlillo wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
I hope to God it isn't this. If a police force wants people to actually be hurt to make a point, then it isn't a police force.


The mayor ran against it. Aren't the people and the mayor getting exactly what they wanted?


C'mon BJ, where's your commitment to individual rights and the 4th Amendment?

Did your libertarian values get tossed on the altar of Worship the Hero Cops and Attack All Democrat Politicians?

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From this article, it looks like the gun/stops ratio had gone down substantially and was part of the reason for the push to eliminate stop-and-frisk all together.

2003: 1 gun per 266 stops
2011: 1 gun per 879 stops

The police contended that this just showed the success of stop-and-frisk, because people were "more likely to leave their guns at home." I have to admit that had me scratching my head, because people who would actually leave their guns at home don't seem like the people that the police need to worry about in terms of violent crime. They seem like the kind of people who may have guns for their own home protection. Maybe I'm missing something about the mindset of the police and what is motivating these stops then.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/10/nyregion/police-stop-and-f...
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bjlillo wrote:
New York was a much more dangerous place prior to the stop-and-frisk policing. Perhaps they're hoping it will return to that and the citizens will beg them to return.
desertfox2004 wrote:
Having spent a little time in the city in the late 90's/early 00's, I thought it was a great place to be a vistor/tourist. I hope one unintended outcome of the current situation doesn't turn out to be that the city is allowed to backslide into the cesspool that it was in the 1970's.

These comments are inaccurate when you look at actual crime statistics. Yes, NYC had a 70's crime problem, a crime problem that plateaued in 1981, leveled off throughout the 1980's, then began cratering in 1994 until it reached an all-time low in 2004.

Data is here:
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm

Year  Index 
1970  904,314 
1971  935,022 
1972  804,605 
1973  814,349 
1974  911,703 
1975  1,021,197 
1976  1,125,739 
1977  1,091,144 
1978  1,027,993 
1979  1,095,140 

Year  Index 
1980  1,209,984 
1981  1,214,935 
1982  1,142,202 
1983  1,042,811 
1984  989,126 
1985  993,811 
1986  1,025,037 
1987  1,061,021 
1988  1,129,241 
1989  1,129,638 

Year  Index 
1990  1,144,874 
1991  1,127,651 
1992  1,061,489 
1993  1,010,176 
1994  921,278 
1995  827,025 
1996  751,456 
1997  709,328 
1998  652,202 
1999  596,743 

Year  Index 
2000  588,189 
2001  556,025 
2002 537121
2003  521,565 
2004  507,648 
2005  491,829 
2006  482,270 
2007  461,731 
2008 466,131 
2009 452,647 

Year  Index 
2010 456202
2011 449300
2012 454803
2013 435194

The stop-and-frisk policies at the beginning of Bloomberg's reign in 2002 ramped-up in earnest in 2006 amid a climate of already record-low crime-rates.

Stop-and-frisk counts:


So anyone peddling the line that eliminating stop-and-frisk immediately plunges NYC into "the bad old days" is ignoring hard evidence to the contrary.

And that is without approaching the idea the stop-and-frisk itself is a con & a failure:
12 years of data from New York City suggest stop-and-frisk wasn’t that effective
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bjlillo wrote:
einsteinidahosu wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
I hope to God it isn't this. If a police force wants people to actually be hurt to make a point, then it isn't a police force.


The mayor ran against it. Aren't the people and the mayor getting exactly what they wanted?


C'mon BJ, where's your commitment to individual rights and the 4th Amendment?

Did your libertarian values get tossed on the altar of Worship the Hero Cops and Attack All Democrat Politicians?



You're assuming much that isn't in my post. I'm just wondering why people have a problem with the cops not enforcing minor crimes when getting rid of broken window policing is one of the things De Blasio ran one and something that people seem to be advocating for. Now that the cops, at the behest of the union, are implementing that policy and making sure they can protect their own safety when making an arrest, people are criticizing the cops.

I've really got no hard opinion on this either way. I think having all these nit-picky laws in the first place is stupid. I think having laws on the books and then demanding cops not enforce them is also stupid. If we're going to have laws, they need to be laws that we're willing to risk having cops engage citizens to enforce. If they aren't important enough to risk that interaction, then get rid of the laws.


The thing is, stop and frisk isn't about enforcing nit-picky laws. It's about using a very low standard to search someone who most likely isn't committing a crime at all.

I don't have a problem with the broken window approach and aggressive enforcement of relatively minor crimes. My problem is with the idea that it's OK to stop someone on the street for basically no reason at all and to search them...and to do this over and over, primarily to poor people.
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Does anyone know what happens in New York if someone gets stopped for a stop-n-frisk and they say "I do not consent to a search" before the frisk starts? Have their been any trials on this?
 
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bjlillo wrote:


You're assuming much that isn't in my post. I'm just wondering why people have a problem with the cops not enforcing minor crimes when getting rid of broken window policing is one of the things De Blasio ran one and something that people seem to be advocating for. Now that the cops, at the behest of the union, are implementing that policy and making sure they can protect their own safety when making an arrest, people are criticizing the cops.

I've really got no hard opinion on this either way. I think having all these nit-picky laws in the first place is stupid. I think having laws on the books and then demanding cops not enforce them is also stupid. If we're going to have laws, they need to be laws that we're willing to risk having cops engage citizens to enforce. If they aren't important enough to risk that interaction, then get rid of the laws.


The problem is that you're equating 'minor crimes' to 'non-crimes I think you're suspicious'.

There's really 0 defense for the Police's response on this, and if anything stop and frisks could be argued to make things like these shootings more likely.

~~~

Too many communities already see the police as the Enemy, and stopping folks for no good reason (sometimes to a Quota, see the link above) only multiplies that feeling tenfold.
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GameCrossing wrote:
Does anyone know what happens in New York if someone gets stopped for a stop-n-frisk and they say "I do not consent to a search" before the frisk starts? Have their been any trials on this?
You have every right to say it, but if the cops have their "reasonable suspicion" it doesn't mean they won't still stop-and-frisk.
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fightcitymayor wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
Does anyone know what happens in New York if someone gets stopped for a stop-n-frisk and they say "I do not consent to a search" before the frisk starts? Have their been any trials on this?
You have every right to say it, but if the cops have their "reasonable suspicion" it doesn't mean they won't still stop-and-frisk.


Similarly to how they are reasonably feeling threatened every time they plug someone.
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Right, I mean cops will absolutely 100% push the whole "reasonable suspicion" thing as hard as they possibly can to arrest black kids, I'm sorry I mean what code word are we using, was it "drug offenders" as in "drug offenders who we want to have a felony conviction so we can eliminate them from the work force and voting rolls, thus accomplishing the goal of both putting them in the underclass for life and at the same time justify our racist feelings that they belong there".

Gotta keep "those people" down - after all, it doesn't matter that both parties are crushing the middle class if we can keep the lower class further down then we are, am I right class guardians, I mean our criminal justice system! Make sure you yank that ladder all the way up - wouldn't want "them" using up all our increasingly hard to get middle class jobs and education, specially since there seems to be less and less of all that to go around here in the middle already.
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You are a douchebag.

Hope you give them this spiel the next time you have to call 9-11.
 
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