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Subject: Mayday and Seth Hiatt... An experience I will never repeat. rss

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Jim McMahon
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wordoftheoracle wrote:
I was on the edge about backing Dead Man's Draw, but I took the plunge. Not only is Seth non-responsive when addressing important update and shipping issues, he tolerates bullying and trolling on his project page! This is ridiculous and as it looks like I won't have the product in the foreseeable future, I would like a refund on the pledge. They have already responded that they will not offer me the refund despite the insults and abuses I have suffered.

Bottom line: I will be avoiding anything Mayday or Seth Hiatt in the future. I do not condone bullying and nor should they.

Can you provide examples of the bullying and trolling?
 
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Jim McMahon
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wordoftheoracle wrote:
Sure. I was told that I am an idiot and should just disappear. Mostly calling me an idiot and requesting that I off myself.

I have to say, reading most of December's comments (that weren't removed by Kickstarter), I think there is plenty of blame to go around.
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Bryan McNeely
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I backed Viceroy on day one and while I have my reservations thanks to how I have seen the Hold Your Breath campaign fall apart, I have faith I will see the game on my shelf.

However, I would agree that Hiatt's projects seem to be full of rudeness; far more than I have ever seen on any campaign thread. Why this is and why it is allowed is beyond me; it certainly is a poor business philosophy to be sketchy on the updates and oddly tolerant of folks who do nothing but jump doen the throats of fellow backers.

There are plenty of folks turning away from MayDay...and would do so sooner if they ever get their games.
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Clinton Coddington
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jimmcmahon wrote:
wordoftheoracle wrote:
Sure. I was told that I am an idiot and should just disappear. Mostly calling me an idiot and requesting that I off myself.

I have to say, reading most of December's comments (that weren't removed by Kickstarter), I think there is plenty of blame to go around.


Well, those December posts made for an interesting read.
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jimmcmahon wrote:
wordoftheoracle wrote:
Sure. I was told that I am an idiot and should just disappear. Mostly calling me an idiot and requesting that I off myself.

I have to say, reading most of December's comments (that weren't removed by Kickstarter), I think there is plenty of blame to go around.


Yeah, you made an awful mess of that comment section. Like, seriously. You're a major part of the problem, so don't come here playing innocent.

EDIT: Also, you pick a fight with people on the comments section, they fight back, and you want Seth to step in? What do you want him to do? And then you want a refund?? The game won't be good because you got in an internet fight??
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Jim McMahon
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Daybreak wrote:
Yeah, you made an awful mess of that comment section. Like, seriously. You're a major part of the problem, so don't come here playing innocent.

EDIT: Also, you pick a fight with people on the comments section, they fight back, and you want Seth to step in? What do you want him to do? And then you want a refund?? The game won't be good because you got in an internet fight??


"He started it! He hit me back!"

Yeah, I'm not feeling much sympathy.
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Derry Salewski
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If I had geeklists dedicated to my supposed failures to deliver projects, I'd definitely be spending all of my time and effort delivering projects sucessfully.

Not policing a bunch of kiddos like you on kickstarter.

 
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wordoftheoracle wrote:
he tolerates bullying and trolling on his project page


I'm guessing it was you he was tolerating. Or why else are there 15 comments posted by you and removed by Kickstarter? Your case isn't on a very solid ground here.
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Jim McMahon
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wordoftheoracle wrote:
jimmcmahon wrote:
Daybreak wrote:
Yeah, you made an awful mess of that comment section. Like, seriously. You're a major part of the problem, so don't come here playing innocent.

EDIT: Also, you pick a fight with people on the comments section, they fight back, and you want Seth to step in? What do you want him to do? And then you want a refund?? The game won't be good because you got in an internet fight??


"He started it! He hit me back!"

Yeah, I'm not feeling much sympathy.


Wow. Sam. Jim. Such a supportive bunch you two.

Thanks everyone for the support here. I just wanted a refund and withdraw from the project. Seth's projects are the only ones that end in an abusive and abrasive comments section. It is very unpleasant and I will not be doing business with Mayday or Seth ever again. He was too busy with another project (Viceroy) that he neglected this one. Here's an excerpt from a message he sent me:

"I didn't post anything at all again until a quick update about shipping on Dec. 20 just to let people know what was going on. Between the 11th and the 20th I didn't even look at the campaign's comments as I am very actively running another campaign (Viceroy which is ending in 24 hours)."
If you can't run two campaigns at once, don't!

Imdon't know what kind of support you want from us. Can you honestly say that you were well behaved in the comments thread? Do you really think Mayday is the only one posting new Kickstarter projects before all of the others have finished delivering? Do you believe that project creators can pick and choose which comments get deleted? Do you want an update every day saying "Sorry, the port is still backed up with no end in sight" and people seem to not believe that (like you seemed to)?

Edit: I'm not saying that Seth is the best to run a KS Project, but in this instance, I think you are not doing the best job at finding things to complain about.
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Jim McMahon
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wordoftheoracle wrote:


I was hardly behaved. After I complained and Kickstarter did nothing, I figured they allowed this kind of behavior, so I retaliated. Sure it was wrong. I'm not pretending to be innocent here, but never before has a KS project I backed devolved so toxically like a Mayday/Seth Hiatt project. I will never again back such a project.

Additionally, he's selling DMD on the Mayday site for the same as the KS pledge level... Had I known this when backing...

As a teacher*, do you think that retaliating and calling people names is the way to go about things? Do you think there may have been a better, more productive way that you could have gone about this?

*=You mentioned in one of the threads that you started here, that your students wanted a game club, so I am using that as my basis for saying that you are a teacher.

Edit: and in your post just above this one, I get the impression that you are again using childish behavior, with the "this is my excuse, what's yours?" routine. (Note: not calling you childish, just stating what your behavior appears to be. Just so we're clear.)
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wordoftheoracle wrote:

You see, that was a provocative and trolling thing to say. Thank you for the example.

I've done many a KS project before. Good ones. Bad ones. This one was just completely out there.

As per social interactions, I handle them just fine. How do you handle them? Trolling the boards on New Years Eve? I'm in a hospital looking after a loved one. What's your excuse?


I apologize for the last part of my comment.

I read through the comments on DMD and do agree with the other here that you are as much at fault for the toxic commenting section as anyone else there. You make fun of someone for not using proper spelling/grammar, you are combative, and you start the insulting again after someone even makes a mention of your name.

Your final paragraph is a fine example of your contribution to the "trolling". Your insinuation is I'm a loser with nothing better to do on New Year's Eve than to troll Boardgamegeek boards. How do you think people are going to respond to this? If you go through my BGG comment history you'll be I'm no troll. By the way - my SO and I had invites and decided to stay in, have a quiet NYE and watch movies.

I've backed more kickstarters than you and have never been angry about a campaign. I have one project that is 2 years over due, updates only when there is information to sent out and I'm cool with it. It gets here when it does.

Anyways. I hope your loved one gets well soon. Have a happy new years.
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Jim McMahon
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wordoftheoracle wrote:
jimmcmahon wrote:
wordoftheoracle wrote:


I was hardly behaved. After I complained and Kickstarter did nothing, I figured they allowed this kind of behavior, so I retaliated. Sure it was wrong. I'm not pretending to be innocent here, but never before has a KS project I backed devolved so toxically like a Mayday/Seth Hiatt project. I will never again back such a project.

Additionally, he's selling DMD on the Mayday site for the same as the KS pledge level... Had I known this when backing...

As a teacher*, do you think that retaliating and calling people names is the way to go about things? Do you think there may have been a better, more productive way that you could have gone about this?

*=You mentioned in one of the threads that you started here, that your students wanted a game club, so I am using that as my basis for saying that you are a teacher.

Edit: and in your post just above this one, I get the impression that you are again using childish behavior, with the "this is my excuse, what's yours?" routine. (Note: not calling you childish, just stating what your behavior appears to be. Just so we're clear.)


I echo the same question back at you. Is there a better way you could have handled getting your point across without being abrasive and insulting?

As per the troll above, I answered him in kind. I doubt that logic works with that one.

First, you must not realize that it is against BGG policy to call other users trolls.

Secondly, if by "abrasive and insulting" you are referring to the "He started it. he hit me back." comment, that was not directed at you, rather it was a humerous comment directed at the poster right before me. I apologize if you thought it to be abrasive and/or insulting. If you mean anything else, please point out the abrasiveness and insults that you are claiming. Tomorrow is the earliest I will see them though, as I am about to go to a New Year's Eve get together (Happy New Year, by the way!) so do not feel pressured to rush to search for them. You are looking after a loved one, so please spend quality time with them, rather than here. This can wait. Enjoy your time with your loved one.



 
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Marc Kolb
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jimmcmahon wrote:
wordoftheoracle wrote:
jimmcmahon wrote:
wordoftheoracle wrote:


I was hardly behaved. After I complained and Kickstarter did nothing, I figured they allowed this kind of behavior, so I retaliated. Sure it was wrong. I'm not pretending to be innocent here, but never before has a KS project I backed devolved so toxically like a Mayday/Seth Hiatt project. I will never again back such a project.

Additionally, he's selling DMD on the Mayday site for the same as the KS pledge level... Had I known this when backing...

As a teacher*, do you think that retaliating and calling people names is the way to go about things? Do you think there may have been a better, more productive way that you could have gone about this?

*=You mentioned in one of the threads that you started here, that your students wanted a game club, so I am using that as my basis for saying that you are a teacher.

Edit: and in your post just above this one, I get the impression that you are again using childish behavior, with the "this is my excuse, what's yours?" routine. (Note: not calling you childish, just stating what your behavior appears to be. Just so we're clear.)


I echo the same question back at you. Is there a better way you could have handled getting your point across without being abrasive and insulting?

As per the troll above, I answered him in kind. I doubt that logic works with that one.

First, you must not realize that it is against BGG policy to call other users trolls.

Secondly, if by "abrasive and insulting" you are referring to the "He started it. he hit me back." comment, that was not directed at you, rather it was a humerous comment directed at the poster right before me. I apologize if you thought it to be abrasive and/or insulting. If you mean anything else, please point out the abrasiveness and insults that you are claiming. Tomorrow is the earliest I will see them though, as I am about to go to a New Year's Eve get together (Happy New Year, by the way!) so do not feel pressured to rush to search for them. You are looking after a loved one, so please spend quality time with them, rather than here. This can wait. Enjoy your time with your loved one.





Apology accepted and apologies are due to you too! I apologize. Enjoy your New Years! You nailed it on the head!

(Totally didn't know that policy. I'll edit to another fantasy character.)
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Marc Kolb
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Update: Seth asked on the comments what he can do and that he's powerless. He isn't powerless where a refund is concerned. That was what I requested. Let's see if he ever responds to my request.
 
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Marc,

As I have mentioned in our private messages and on the KS comments, we do NOT have the powers of moderation on the KS project comments page. We do not delete comments or suspend backers or otherwise have any real power. All we can do is comment on there as well. We don't allow bullying or harassing. Any bullying or harassing are handled by KS and NOT us. I would love to have the power to delete comments, ban people and otherwise enforce things, but we do not have that power. The comments are a direct result of the interactions of our backers, you included.

I'm sorry the project has gone so south for you, though I should point out that on Dec. 10 you posted in the comments:

Quote:
Seth, I think you're running this project well and it takes the best of project creators to admit when they've been a bit tacky about pitching new projects!


The following day you had several comments deleted by Kickstarter and were put on a 7 day suspension for what they deemed as improper comments. This wasn't because we are bullying or harassing anyone and any harassment you were subject to was NOT done by us.

We have talked about a refund and you told us last week that you were ok getting the game rather than the refund you had previously requested, since KS doesn't have an easy way to grant refunds. We have noted your request for a refund and will get a manual check for $20 mailed out to you in due course. We just got the game in and are getting all the backer rewards out this week and next week.

I hope you can appreciate that we have been a little busier than usual the last few weeks with 4 KS projects fulfilling and another campaign running, plus the Christmas rush and some personal time for our team.

The amount of energy you are putting into this project rival mine the last couple of weeks. Seems like a lot of work.
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When should I receive the manual check? "In due course" doesn't fill me with confidence.

If you cannot handle the running and fulfillment of that many projects at once, perhaps they should be staggered a bit? Not that it matters to me in the future. I'm done with your company.
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Quote:
The following day you had several comments deleted by Kickstarter and were put on a 7 day suspension for what they deemed as improper comments. This wasn't because we are bullying or harassing anyone and any harassment you were subject to was NOT done by us.


I did not appreciate you sharing that information in a public forum.
 
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maydaygames wrote:
I'm sorry the project has gone so south for you, though I should point out that on Dec. 10 you posted in the comments:

Quote:
Seth, I think you're running this project well and it takes the best of project creators to admit when they've been a bit tacky about pitching new projects!




That was prior to your gross mismanagement and preoccupation with other projects. As you mentioned, you didn't post anything between the 11th and the 20th because you were preoccupied with Viceroy. To my understanding, you mishandled the fulfillment of Hold Your Breath as well. I don't know the details on that, but rest assured, I will never back or encourage anyone to back a Mayday Kickstarter again.
 
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maydaygames wrote:

The amount of energy you are putting into this project rival mine the last couple of weeks. Seems like a lot of work.


Haha! Maybe you should put in more energy instead of responding to me after I've stopped posting on the comments.

From Kickstarter wrote:

Marc, please stop stirring the pot and let us focus on fulfilling rewards rather than following drama. I can appreciate that you feel harassed here but considering we don't have powers of moderation on Kickstarter there really isn't anything we could have done for you here. Luckily Kickstarter moderates its own forums and deletes posts and issues suspensions as it deems appropriate. Dragging us through the mud when we have said NOTHING insulting to you hardly seems fair.

Please stop!


That was already after I stopped posting. I don't know what you mean. I've 'stopped', whatever you mean by that.

Prior to that:
From Kickstarter wrote:

Marc,

Can you understand that I have zero control over people's comments here? Do you understand that? Sorry you feel I am tolerating abuse but you have had more comments deleted here in the last 2 weeks than any of our other 15,000+ backers in the last 3 years. Please chill out and don't blame me for something I have no control over at all. What exactly would you have me do for you with regards to the posts you disagree with? Can you not understand that I have no influence at all about those? Honestly I can't do something that is out of my power!


I wish you had put in as much energy into your project than you did in responding to me after I stopped posting.

 
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The comments section of the KS is publicly available for all to see, including all of the numerous deleted posts by KS that you authored over the last few weeks, including as recently as 2 days ago.

I have asked Daniel to stop shipping rewards so that he can mail your check today. How you can get so worked up about a $20 pledge is beyond me, but that is your right, I just feel badly so much effort has been wasted.
 
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wordoftheoracle wrote:

Haha! Maybe you should put in more energy instead of responding to me after I've stopped posting on the comments.


wordoftheoracle wrote:
I wish you had put in as much energy into your project than you did in responding to me after I stopped posting.


On Dec. 10th you said we were running a good project and then on the 20th you had done a 180 and said we were grossly negligent. Now you say we should have put more energy into this project over that time, what exactly would you have had us do? The product was stuck in Port and there was NOTHING we could have done for you or anyone. The product just came in and we are trying to ship out rewards. I don't know what WE did to generate this hostility, maybe it is in some of those posts of yours that KS deleted.
 
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Sorry, I sent you an email instead, my Skype here in China is really spotty and I can't get any calls to go through right now.
 
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Seth, well, after reading through everything all I can say is I guess this is pretty much on par for KS. Usually reserved for really late projects so why this blew up is rather odd. Your project is pretty much on time all things considered. So, kudos to you for running a successful project. There's always going to people like Marc. Just let KS handle them. Believe it or not people don't care about this stuff. It's an isolated issue and people are smart enough to know where to file it.

I'm not even going to bother commenting on who was right or wrong because as you can see it got toxic here as well as there....hum....gee.... Besides too many of Marcs comments got banned to make an informed choice.

Don't let Marc get you down Seth and I wouldn't bother arguing with him, as you can see this thread is getting toxic again. Seems nothing is good enough for him. Retail 101, just make those people go away as their penny isn't worth the headache. My guess is he posted here because he got banned again from KS. Notice no one else over there got banned? Hum...gee...
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Re: Mayday and Seth Hiatt
Thank you! Ryan got to me. I gave some feedback as well. Honestly, I'm actually quite impressed with your follow up on this.
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Thanks Marc,

We really are interested in constructive criticism and I do appreciate your feedback and agree that we are spread to thin right now too. We wish we had more control over things on KS's comments section too. We are grateful for your willingness to work with us and I'm glad Ryan could help!
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