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Subject: Gaarkhan's Charge: Is it intended to ignore additional movement costs? rss

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Jorgen Peddersen
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Gaarkhan's Charge ability states the he moves spaces up to his Speed and then performs an optional Melee Attack. In several threads, we have surmised that this is an example of using the Move X Spaces rules from the RRG:

Movement section wrote:
• Move X Spaces: If an ability moves a figure a listed number of spaces, this movement ignores movement point costs. All other effects of terrain and figures apply (for example the figure cannot end its movement in another figure’s space).


Following this rule, Gaarkhan can move through hostile figures and ignore additional costs from Difficult Terrain during this movement. This may not have been intended by the rules writers though.

Rather than cluttering other threads, I thought I'd create this one if anyone wants to discuss it.
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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We play by RAW, so Gaarkhan gets some major sprinting. Not sure if it's what was intended or not, but we feel it's pretty clear what's stated in the rules.

-shnar
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zoran
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Weighing in favour of Gaarkhan having to pay all usual movement costs is the fact that the number of spaces are not listed on his ability.

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Jorgen Peddersen
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zemus wrote:
Weighing in favour of Gaarkhan having to pay all usual movement costs is the fact that the number of spaces are not listed on his ability.



Yeah, this part was the only thing that makes me think we might be incorrect in the way we interpret the rules. I've wanted to point it out in other threads, but I've always thought it's not a strong enough difference to not apply the Move X Spaces rule. Thanks for pointing it out.
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Curtis Kopciuch
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unless X = "a number of spaces up to your speed". whistle

Edit: Actually now that I think about it I think the Move X rule maybe correct.

It does not say gain movement points and/or spend movement points up to your speed.

It says "move a number of spaces...".
 
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Josh
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If you really want to take the rules literally, the charge ability does not have a specific "listed number of spaces" and so Move X does not apply.
 
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Scott Yost
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And note that Tactical Movement is explicitly written as movement points, while Charge is not.
 
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Curtis Kopciuch
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joshaubry wrote:
If you really want to take the rules literally, the charge ability does not has a specific "listed number of spaces" and so Move X does not apply.


Sure it does.

"listed number of spaces" = "a number of spaces up to your speed"

They key is, you are not getting movement points to spend. You have to have movement points to spend in order to pay movement costs.

I am 99% sure Move X is correct. No where does it say that Move X has to actually say Move 4. X just represents how many "Spaces" you are allowed to move your figure. And Gaarkhan's Charge says he can move spaces up to his speed. There is no movement points or paying for terrain.

Like I said X = "a number of spaces up to your speed"
which is the same as saying Move 4. Or a different number if a game mechanic happens to change his speed.

Edit: Oh and just to take things even more litterly, "Move" is not an included Keyword, so is not the same as Pierce and Blast which most likly will have an Integer following it.
 
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Jo Bartok
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We play it RAW too. Similar existed in D1E (Straight charge there).
You can only use it once per activation.
The fifth action has to be Rest to play it again on the 6th or 7th action.
You can't stop the movement to attack and then continue (e.g. it is no free move action).

I'd even not be too sure if you could use it to only move. So that's rather the question. Like No Escape. If you cannot do one part of the stuff on the card, can you do the other part. Do you get Focus if you don't have Line of Sight with No Escape? Can you charge if you can't/won't attack?
 
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zoran
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KAGE13 wrote:
Like I said X = "a number of spaces up to your speed"
which is the same as saying Move 4. Or a different number if a game mechanic happens to change his speed.


Only it's not the same. It's left to the player to decide whether to move Gaarkhan 1 space, 2 spaces, or more, other things being equal.
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Bob Gale
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I'm not seeing anything in Gaarkhan's Charge ability that would make him immune to terrain penalties and the like. Sorry if I'm not understanding your points. To think he would be immune to that seems like an over reach to me.
 
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Scott Yost
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ionas wrote:

I'd even not be too sure if you could use it to only move. So that's rather the question. Like No Escape. If you cannot do one part of the stuff on the card, can you do the other part. Do you get Focus if you don't have Line of Sight with No Escape? Can you charge if you can't/won't attack?


Charge as written actually says "may" attack so I think that part ends up being pretty clear. I had the same question at first.
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Curtis Kopciuch
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zemus wrote:
KAGE13 wrote:
Like I said X = "a number of spaces up to your speed"
which is the same as saying Move 4. Or a different number if a game mechanic happens to change his speed.


Only it's not the same. It's left to the player to decide whether to move Gaarkhan 1 space, 2 spaces, or more, other things being equal.


For Sure. That's why it says "up to" and not Move 4.
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Scott Yost
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bobgale wrote:
I'm not seeing anything in Gaarkhan's Charge ability that would make him immune to terrain penalties and the like. Sorry if I'm not understanding your points. To think he would be immune to that seems like an over reach to me.


The reason that Charge ignores terrain penalties is because it says "move a number of spaces equal to your movement", and the rulebook defines "move X spaces" as follows:

Rules reference pp 19 wrote:
Move X Spaces: If an ability moves a figure a listed number
of spaces, this movement ignores movement point costs. All
other effects of terrain and figures apply (for example the
figure cannot end its movement in another figure’s space).
When moving in this way, a large figure’s base cannot rotate
and must retain its orientation.
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Curtis Kopciuch
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bobgale wrote:
I'm not seeing anything in Gaarkhan's Charge ability that would make him immune to terrain penalties and the like. Sorry if I'm not understanding your points. To think he would be immune to that seems like an over reach to me.


lol, because it says move spaces. In order to pay for terrain you have to have "Movement Points".

The figure must spend one additional movement point to enter a space containing a hostile figure

A figure must spend one additional movement point to enter a space containing difficult terrain

How does he spend movement points when he doesn't have any?

Blocking Terrain is different, it doesn't talk about movement points, it talks about moving

Figures cannot move through...

So with his ability he still has to go around blocking terrain.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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KAGE13 wrote:
unless X = "a number of spaces up to your speed". whistle

Edit: Actually now that I think about it I think the Move X rule maybe correct.

It does not say gain movement points and/or spend movement points up to your speed.

It says "move a number of spaces...".

And this is why I think it's that Gaarkhan can run and nothing can stop him!

-shnar
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Kristofer Bengtsson
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We play it as he moves 4 spaces, ignoring terrain (unless impassable) and enemy figures.
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Martin Gallo
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Just to add fuel to the fire, the card says "…can move spaces…". It does not say anything about moving into/through "occupied spaces" or "obstructed spaces".

Until I read an official ruling I am going to house rule that occupied (enemy or friendly) or obstructed spaces may not be entered while charging.
 
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Jo Bartok
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martimer wrote:
Just to add fuel to the fire, the card says "…can move spaces…". It does not say anything about moving into/through "occupied spaces" or "obstructed spaces".

Until I read an official ruling I am going to house rule that occupied (enemy or friendly) or obstructed spaces may not be entered while charging.


The card itself RAW is quite clear, the rules as written also specify that move x spaces ignores additional costs.
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Phil Triest
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martimer wrote:
Just to add fuel to the fire, the card says "…can move spaces…". It does not say anything about moving into/through "occupied spaces" or "obstructed spaces".

Until I read an official ruling I am going to house rule that occupied (enemy or friendly) or obstructed spaces may not be entered while charging.


Yeah I am leaning that way as well. I see this advantage as being able to move and attack twice in an activation. That to me is powerful enough!
 
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Pasi Ojala
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Why would it specify that you can't end on occupied space unless you can go through occupied spaces?
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Travis Williams
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That is also why he gets 2 strain tokens.

move up to 4 spaces and ignore movement cost.
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Phil Triest
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Alphaborn wrote:
That is also why he gets 2 strain tokens.

move up to 4 spaces and ignore movement cost.


He gets two strain by moving and attacking in one action...
 
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Levi Ritchie
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To me it seems ignoring costs clearly isn't the intent of the ability, as that makes it too good, but it also is very clearly the way it works because of the rules. 100% chance this is going to be mentioned in the first errata.
 
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Jo Bartok
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CaptainHammerX wrote:
To me it seems ignoring costs clearly isn't the intent of the ability, as that makes it too good, but it also is very clearly the way it works because of the rules. 100% chance this is going to be mentioned in the first errata.


Let me tell you that after one whole campaign (maybe I am wrong, still) having played Jedi, Wookie, Sniper, Scoundrel, the strongest hero in the end game (tier 3 game) was the Jedi. The Wookie was a tad more useful in the very early game but was easily trumped by any ranged character. So to sum it up, the balance of the wookie seems pretty good. He is medium-weak in the beginning and medium-strong in the end whereas ranged are start of rather strong and then become medium-strong in comparision. The jedi though really builds up, being rather useless and weak in the beginning the jedi becomes a tool of destruction or utility (or both, if you have enough XP).

Thus... there might be a passage about the wookie, but I can't really foresee any kind of nerf. Especially not because the whole campaign while it is fun to play, in a means of competitive game is kind of a joke and all that matters is the one of the final games for determining victory and at least Last Stand is incredibly hard and the jedi there is incredibly strong (also because of her force push option but then also because of battle meditation and yielding 2 focus per rest if done well).
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