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BattleCON: Fate of Indines» Forums » General

Subject: Complexity list comparing to War and Devastation rss

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Thiago Colas
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We had a similar thread to this about the characters of War, and its a good time to bring it here to Fate: Since Devastation has 5 difficulty flights, War has 3 and Fate only two, finding out how the 10 Fate characters fit in the same difficulty levels (like happened here) would be good (if for nothing else, so we can get Havoc to make extra dividers )
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Would that make it 2 characters per flight, if we want to split them to the 5 flights?
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Knuckles Eki wrote:
Would that make it 2 characters per flight, if we want to split them to the 5 flights?


It's not about actually splitting them into 5 flights, but matching all the characters per difficulty level, so its easier to know exactly which ones are better for begginers. Fate feels more complex than the other boxes, and im pretty sure nobody there fits the novice level, for an example.
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dinobottm2 wrote:
Knuckles Eki wrote:
Would that make it 2 characters per flight, if we want to split them to the 5 flights?


It's not about actually splitting them into 5 flights, but matching all the characters per difficulty level, so its easier to know exactly which ones are better for begginers. Fate feels more complex than the other boxes, and im pretty sure nobody there fits the novice level, for an example.


Welsie alone bring the complexity levels up. whistle
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dorktron2000 wrote:
dinobottm2 wrote:
Knuckles Eki wrote:
Would that make it 2 characters per flight, if we want to split them to the 5 flights?


It's not about actually splitting them into 5 flights, but matching all the characters per difficulty level, so its easier to know exactly which ones are better for begginers. Fate feels more complex than the other boxes, and im pretty sure nobody there fits the novice level, for an example.


Welsie alone bring the complexity levels up. whistle


So, all we want is to know what characters belong to the Begginer, Intermediate, Advanced and Master. I, for an example, keep my characters separated by difficulty level alone.
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I'm just spitballing here, but based on Brad's prior post, and the rationales given for the different flights, my initial impressions would be:

Baenvier: Beginner- Requires decent knowledge of bases and their interactions in order to know when you would want to use his spellbreaker tokens; Resource management isn't as intuitive or forgiving as say, Hikaru or (especially) Cadenza, but his styles are still particularly strong, and his unique base makes up for his main flaw (lack of mobility), so he's pretty well rounded and simple *enough*

Jager: Beginner- Also has strong styles, signature moves are fairly intuitive (especially if you've been using ante finishers), but whiffing one means losing it forever, so it can be difficult to know when you want to take the gambles, and he wants you to think a little bit about what his styles and signatures can offer you in a given matchup, though they're all situationally useful.

Eustace: Intermediate- Dude is weird. UA is rad, but has a lot of unpleasant caveats that his pilot has to respect and play around. There's nothing quite like him in the rest of battlecon, since, the way I see him, he's kind of a...really brawly clocker? Cares pretty greatly about where he starts and ends his beats, cares about reactive stuns (though he'll often go second) but plays a *mean* rope-a-dope game, which can surprise/frustrate people who aren't ready for it. Does require understanding of positioning, and careful consideration of the opponent's attack options, and how to deal with them (with or without spending tokens).

Sarafina: Intermediate- Good hit-confirm on her UA and her unique base is surprisingly easy to use. Also has some pretty fun/mean effects if you can get 'em; A relatively easy time approaching or retreating as necessary. I figure if Regicide Heketch is intermediate, it's probably the best spot for her, too.

Thessala: Intermediate- Requires forethought, but UA is powerful enough to be forgiving, and you *do* get the option+incentive to remove/replace trackers with Galvanized. Once you understand matchups and why you might or might not want (or want to work towards getting) certain bonuses, she comes together nicely. If her styles were hard to use, she'd be advanced, but since it's just her UA, which is complex, yet forgiving and very flexible, I'd say Intermediate.

Xenitia: Advanced- Her abilities and effects are simple enough (though I believe she's the only char. in Fate who spends life), but the risk management required for her every turn can be daunting- You can get blown out in a big way with minor misplays. Cares *a lot* about reactive stuns, but has the Stun Guard to back it up. Easy enough to use, but hard to use *well*

Iri: Advanced- Zaamassal was, so I feel it mostly fits Iri. (she doesn't lose options when stunned, but does have drawbacks on her "stances," and they care about whether she switched or not) Her stats are middling-to-weak, and while she is capable of big numbers, it's almost always at a cost, or only granted circumstantially. Has a lot of flexibility, but without understanding how the forms fit together with the styles in different situations, and planning ahead at least a turn or so, she can be hamstringed out of the gate.

Burman: Advanced- I had to take a fairly long time to figure out how to charge up at a reasonable rate without sucking in the interim. He's got a *huge* toolbox of effects he can pay for, and figuring out what to build towards can result in analysis paralysis. Not to mention, everything he wants to do requires at least one, sometimes two, or even three turns of setup to accomplish without overexposing yourself and getting punished. Once the momentum is rolling, he can be difficult to stop, but if he overextends on a cashout, or gets greedy with his charges, he can come to a halt and be hard to get started again before losing the battle.

Alumis: Advanced- Neat effects that require positional counterplay and good reads on the opponent in order to excel. Reasonably strong, but all her nifty effects care about the Shadow Marker, which is difficult to manage, since the opponent has a lot of control over their marker, and can mess with your plans just by choosing to advance 2 instead of 1 or whatever. There's obviously ways to deal with such disruption, but it requires a fair understanding of the way movement and positioning work, as well as the spacing your opponent wants to have, and the options they have to get it.

Welsie: Master- Let's be real. A character whose primary gimmick is messing with discards to recur attack pairs or pointedly manipulate the opponent's options probably can't go anywhere else. Especially when you consider that some of her best stuff needs you to telegraph and repeat attack pairs, and to try your very best to *never not hit,* even if it's for little to no damage, since one miss, at a crucial moment, can stop the hype train in its tracks.
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Joshua Van Laningham
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For Fate (and other ten character sets) only the Basic and Advanced tiers will be used. These tiers are a general scale for complexity, and should not be compared to Dev or War tiers (ex. Fate's "Advanced" is not really the same as Dev's "Advanced") The Fate tier list is as follows:

Basic: Baenvier, Eustace, Jager, Sarafina, Thessala

Advanced: Alumis, Burman, Iri, Welsie, Xenitia
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Ithry wrote:
For Fate (and other ten character sets) only the Basic and Advanced tiers will be used. These tiers are a general scale for complexity, and should not be compared to Dev or War tiers (ex. Fate's "Advanced" is not really the same as Dev's "Advanced") The Fate tier list is as follows:

Basic: Baenvier, Eustace, Jager, Sarafina, Thessala

Advanced: Alumis, Burman, Iri, Welsie, Xenitia


We get that, Ithry. It's just that, since all the games are compatible, it would be good to know how the Fate chartacters compare with everyone else. Brad posted a table for War before (right here: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/14459175#14459175 )
 
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Ah, apparently I can't read the thread title.
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Ithry wrote:
Ah, apparently I can't read the thread title.


Relax, it happens. So, to sum it up, if ALL Battlecon games were just one, how would belong to each flight?
 
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I like S F's tier list quite a lot, and I would probably mirror that if I were categorizing them. There's good reasoning on all of the categorizations.
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Vladislav Goldakovsky
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Is Thessala really just Intermediate?
 
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I beginner mediate advanced master. There are 5 lights/colors. Which one isnt represented? (I'm asking so i can do a project right.)
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roufus wrote:
I beginner mediate advanced master. There are 5 lights/colors. Which one isnt represented? (I'm asking so i can do a project right.)

Novice

Seems odd that the cheap intro box didn't have any novice characters in it. I would have figured that it would be weighted more heavily towards easy characters, to more effectively lure people in.
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Ah_Pook wrote:
roufus wrote:
I beginner mediate advanced master. There are 5 lights/colors. Which one isnt represented? (I'm asking so i can do a project right.)

Novice

Seems odd that the cheap intro box didn't have any novice characters in it. I would have figured that it would be weighted more heavily towards easy characters, to more effectively lure people in.


The deal with Fate, as compared to War or Devastation, is that most of the characters in it were literally chosen by fans. The game itself came to be as part of the Kickstarter for War: Remastered. It was Brad's idea to come up with a smaller, cheaper, easy store-and-travel game while doing the Kickstarter for War, and so he made it a stretch goal. So while it certainly can serve as a BattleCON starter, it may not actually have the best characters for s "starter" set. That is to say, War and Devastation both are probably a more balanced roster, simply due to the vote-in nature of most of the characters in Fate. Actually, Fate has one of the most difficult charcaters to grasp in the roster: Welsie. She went through a lot of revisions during playtesting. All this said, Fate does look to have an awesome roster of fun characters that will be joining BattleCON.

I honestly think, and this is my opinion, cost not being a factor, that War is the best game to "start" with concerning BattleCON. But certainly, waiting for the cheaper Fate is not a bad decision. Fate itself should still be very fun and competitive as balanced as a game by itself. But, like you said, it doesn't have any "novice" characters.
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You are right, but his point stands. For a small box meant to be an entry point to BattleCON, Fate is absolutely beginner unfriendly.

kurisenshi wrote:
Ah_Pook wrote:
roufus wrote:
I beginner mediate advanced master. There are 5 lights/colors. Which one isnt represented? (I'm asking so i can do a project right.)

Novice

Seems odd that the cheap intro box didn't have any novice characters in it. I would have figured that it would be weighted more heavily towards easy characters, to more effectively lure people in.


The deal with Fate, as compared to War or Devastation, is that most of the characters in it were literally chosen by fans. The game itself came to be as part of the Kickstarter for War: Remastered. It was Brad's idea to come up with a smaller, cheaper, easy store-and-travel game while doing the Kickstarter for War, and so he made it a stretch goal. So while it certainly can serve as a BattleCON starter, it may not actually have the best characters for s "starter" set. That is to say, War and Devastation both are probably a more balanced roster, simply due to the vote-in nature of most of the characters in Fate. Actually, Fate has one of the most difficult charcaters to grasp in the roster: Welsie. She went through a lot of revisions during playtesting. All this said, Fate does look to have an awesome roster of fun characters that will be joining BattleCON.

I honestly think, and this is my opinion, cost not being a factor, that War is the best game to "start" with concerning BattleCON. But certainly, waiting for the cheaper Fate is not a bad decision. Fate itself should still be very fun and competitive as balanced as a game by itself. But, like you said, it doesn't have any "novice" characters.
 
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I'm not sure I would call it "beginner unfriendly", but I guess that depends on how you understand a "beginner". Someone who has never played head-to-head card or board games will probably find Fate challenging, and perhaps prohibitively so; but I don't think someone who has some experience with head-to-head card or board games will find it too difficult.
 
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Ah_Pook wrote:
roufus wrote:
I beginner mediate advanced master. There are 5 lights/colors. Which one isnt represented? (I'm asking so i can do a project right.)

Novice

Seems odd that the cheap intro box didn't have any novice characters in it. I would have figured that it would be weighted more heavily towards easy characters, to more effectively lure people in.


Cool deal. Now I can finally unleash my project upon the world! Muahahahahaaaa!

That is if Ican figure out how to upload something to the files page.
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LeinadColtrane wrote:
I'm not sure I would call it "beginner unfriendly", but I guess that depends on how you understand a "beginner". Someone who has never played head-to-head card or board games will probably find Fate challenging, and perhaps prohibitively so; but I don't think someone who has some experience with head-to-head card or board games will find it too difficult.


I would say "beginner unfriendly" is the right expression. Not only the characteres are more complicated in terms of rules, it also does not have any character that is conceptualy easy to grasp. They are not just complex, they are all around weird. Awesome, but weird.
 
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