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Subject: Where's the tanks? rss

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Paul Elliott
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I'm very interested in Combat Commander. I don't currently own any other tactical games, and this seems like a nice place to start. But there's one thing that I've noticed: where's the tanks? So, I guess I have a couple questions.

1) Will there be a tanks supplement in the future? Would that even be possible without altering the fate decks significantly?

2) What is the design decision behind not including tanks?

3) Will I miss them? For someone who only wants to buy into one tactical system, will I be satisfied with infantry-only battles?

Thanks.
 
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I seem to recall reading on ConsimWorld that later additions will have tanks.
 
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Trevor Murphy
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From what I read, it won't have tanks since the designer felt that they couldn't be integrated into this scale convincingly. However, he's apparently got a game similar to CC that includes tanks planned for the future.
 
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Chadwik
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Hi Paul,

Quote:
Will there be a tanks supplement in the future?


Not in this game series, though I am designing a platoon-scaled system similar to CC that will include armored combat.

Quote:
Would that even be possible without altering the fate decks significantly?


Nope.

Quote:
What is the design decision behind not including tanks?


Scale. During WWII, platoon-to-company sized battles were, by far, mostly infantry-only engagements. Also, at only 30 meters per hex and with maps only 10x15 hexes, even one tank would utterly dominate the battlefield. (I know; we tried several times during development.)

Quote:
Will I miss them?


Nope. The cry for tanks has invariably been voiced by those folks who haven't yet played the game. Those who have tried CC pretty much love the game for what it includes rather than for what it is perceived to be missing.

Quote:
For someone who only wants to buy into one tactical system, will I be satisfied with infantry-only battles?


I LOVE ASL (my only game rated a "10") and other WWII games that have armor but I have played CC over 350 times now....and not because I feel a responsibility to do so due to some playtesting requirement or somesuch, but because I genuinely love playing this game over and over.

[DISCLAIMER: I am the designer of the game so you may take my views as biased if you wish -- though many others share my addiction.]

Hope this helps!
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John Foley
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It took me two years of ASL before I finally took on AFV's. After getting the hang of infantry, we added Guns. For the most part, over the years, most scenarios I played with my gaming buddy involved infantry and a few Guns.

CC has a few Guns - which are appropriate to the "skirmish scale" of the game. I'm not missing the AFV's at this scale - I did not miss them in most of the ASL scenarios I played either.

I'm only trying amplify Chad's point that - likely for most players of the game - you will enjoy the game for what it includes.

John
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Lance Wilkinson

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Quote:
3) Will I miss them? For someone who only wants to buy into one tactical system, will I be satisfied with infantry-only battles?


I suppose only you can answer this question.

I would say, though, that in any tac-level game worth replaying, there's going to be enough to do with infantry that the game won't be dull. ASL SK#1 is infantry only and it hasn't disappointed.

Some of the things to do in an infantry-only game (I think all this is in CC:E):

figuring out how to assault positions in good cover, arranging mg's so they have interlocking firelanes, placing mines and wire in an attempt to channel the attacker's movements, coordinating other support weapon fire, judicious use of smoke, coordinating units so some can put fire on the defender while others advance, when to engage in close combat, how close to your troops do you call in the artillery barrage...

If that sort of stuff sounds fun, you won't miss tanks too much. I think you will miss to risk of a squad trying to get near enough to a tank to place a gammon bomb (and pray that it immobilizes the beast!), but then games always have trade-offs. The small scale and seemingly manageable ruleset of CC have their merits.
 
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Paul Elliott
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Thanks for all of the replies. You're probably right--I just needed a little bit of helpful encouragement. Add me to the list of those eagerly awaiting this release.
 
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Aaron Lewicki
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I wanted to see tanks in the game as well, before I tried it. After playing one game, it was immediately obvious that not only wouldn't they work at this scale (it'd be like playing Steve Jackson Games' Ogre), but the game was already so entertaining that the added complexity of tank rules just would have slowed the game down without adding anything substantial.

That said, for those of us who are tank enthusiasts (which, I think, is pretty much EVERY World War II wargamer), I am anxiously awaiting Chad's next project, which will be at a scale where tanks will be appropriate.
 
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Andy Daglish
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Maximillion wrote:
I wanted to see tanks in the game as well, before I tried it. After playing one game, it was immediately obvious that not only wouldn't they work at this scale (it'd be like playing Steve Jackson Games' Ogre),


It would be like playing ASL, where they work at this scale, on maps just like these, very well indeed. Thy work at the lower scale of Up Front also.

Quote:
but the game was already so entertaining that the added complexity of tank rules just would have slowed the game down without adding anything substantial.


We can be assured they would have done that.

Quote:
That said, for those of us who are tank enthusiasts (which, I think, is pretty much EVERY World War II wargamer), I am anxiously awaiting Chad's next project, which will be at a scale where tanks will be appropriate.


AFVs are entirely appropriate at this scale.
 
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Stephen Stewart
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Scott Firestone IV wrote:
I seem to recall reading on ConsimWorld that later additions will have tanks.


Later, ugh hum...$59 expansion, will have the tanks...

this is BULL@$%$ Put them in the game...

Stop this ...Making 3-10 expansions for the games...it's a sad gimmick to squeeze more money out of gamers.

Put it in one package!! The price is high enough already...SHEESH!!


Yes I'm tired of ASL doing the same thing!
 
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Kai Jensen
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Quote:
...$59 expansion, will have the tanks...


Nope. The tanks are for an entirely separate game. CC is an infantry-only game. Period.

If Chad had wanted to design a game with infantry AND tanks, they would be there. But he didn't, so they aren't.
 
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Kai Jensen
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Quote:
Put it in one package!! The price is high enough already...


If it had all been in one package (Vol.1 and Vol.2), the price would have doubled. Do you know anyone willing to drop $150+ on an unknown designer with an unknown game? Now - do you know 500-700 people that willing? Because that's what it would take to get this game out the door.
 
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J Mathews
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aforandy wrote:
Maximillion wrote:
I wanted to see tanks in the game as well, before I tried it. After playing one game, it was immediately obvious that not only wouldn't they work at this scale (it'd be like playing Steve Jackson Games' Ogre),


It would be like playing ASL, where they work at this scale, on maps just like these, very well indeed. Thy work at the lower scale of Up Front also.

Quote:
but the game was already so entertaining that the added complexity of tank rules just would have slowed the game down without adding anything substantial.


We can be assured they would have done that.

Quote:
That said, for those of us who are tank enthusiasts (which, I think, is pretty much EVERY World War II wargamer), I am anxiously awaiting Chad's next project, which will be at a scale where tanks will be appropriate.


AFVs are entirely appropriate at this scale.

You know, there's nothing stating that just because something worked at a similar scale in a different game, that it will work in this game and the system it uses. As far as I can tell, ASL and CC are very different games and use very different systems to cover similar material. Why should everything that works in one system works in the other? I bet money that the CC cards wouldn't work in the ASL system, so why try to jury rig them into that system? Why not let CC sink or swim on it's own merits- which in this case is without tanks?
 
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John Brady
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This is not directed at the original poster, btw, or anyone in particlular...but just about ever since this game was announced, people have been whining about the lack of tanks.

Tanks work in ASL...but we don't need *another* ASL, do we? I think the appeal of this game for many folks is that it's NOT ASL. And, since ASL hexes are 40 yards, and they're 30 yards in CC, you could argue that it's not the same scale. There...I just did lol.

And for all the people who simply *have* to have tanks in their game...DESIGN YOUR OWN FRIGGIN GAME AND PUT TANKS IN IT, THEN!!! Je**** Ti******** C*****!! It's only a game, not the Second Coming!! If not having tanks in this game is going to make your **** fall off, DON'T BUY IT!!

Chad, you must have the patience of Job to put up with all the abuse you've been getting lately...people trying to "fix" a game they haven't even played yet, folks pestering you about what's in/not in the game, etc. Either you're a saint, or you get your Xanax for free.

Let me speak for the folks that are looking forward to this game *just the way it is*. Thank you, and keep up the good work! (now...about that discount lol).





 
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Chadwik
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Quote:
It would be like playing ASL...


Only not, because CC isn't ASL.

Quote:
... where [tanks] work at this scale, on maps just like these, very well indeed.


Linearly, CC scale is 75% that of ASL. CC maps are 10 hexes by 15 hexes. How many ASL scenarios utilizing only a single half-board have Armor? "Tussle at Thomashof" comes to mind - as well as one of the new ones from Armies of Oblivion - but these are the exception rather than the rule, even within ASL.

Quote:
Thy work at the lower scale of Up Front also.


They may 'work' to a degree, but I - and most Up Front players that I have have come in contact with - prefer playing UF scenarios without Armor.

Quote:
AFVs are entirely appropriate at this scale.


Battles devoid of AFVs are entirely appropriate at this scale.
 
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David Spangler
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While tanks are fun and I can appreciate those who enjoy them in a game (and do so myself), I am more than happy to have a game that focuses entirely upon infantry. In fact, if anything, I would enjoy an even smaller scale where each counter represents one man and the game is between one or two squads on each side. (One of my favorite WWII games from years back was John Butterfield's Soldiers, published by West End Games back in the late Eighties, a great game of man-to-man combat).

Thanks for CC, Chad, just the way it is. I've read the rulebook and now look foward to the game, hopefully before Christmas!
 
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