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Subject: Soontir and some...bombers? rss

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Tobias Böhnemann
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So I recently bought a pair of Tie-Bombers, bringing my total of them to 3. The thing I am looking forward to the most is laying down great numbers of bombs. So I startet playing around with list Ideas and my first impulse was to load the cheap generics with the most expensive bombs and hopefully slaughter me some B-Wings on one turn. Incidentally, the leftover points were exactly enough for my favourite Soontir loadout. This means:

http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Galactic%20Empire&d=v3!s!...

3 x Scimitar-Squadron Pilot [16] (Proton Bombs [5])

Soontir Fel [27] (PTL [3], Royal Guard Tie [0], Hull Upgrade [3], Shield Upgrade [4])

Total [100]

What do you think of this (apart from "BOMBERS AND BOMBS SUCK LEARN TO PLAY NOOB"(No, really I've encountered that shake ))? I am not sure wether this list is dependant on initiative or not. The plan is to aproach to almost in range, then jump from there into range one, preferably into base-contact so my bombers have a higher chance of survival. Next turn all bombs are dropped, unleashing mayhem on anyone who stood in front of them last turn. Meanwhile Soontir does his thing, taking shots whenever possible and helping to clean up remains. Possible tweaks I see are:

Drop HU from Soontir for a total of 97 points, so I can reliably have the choice of initiative.

Drop HU as well as SU to upgrade the Bombers to Gammas. I dislike making Soontir more vulnerable, but I guess it is an option.

Let me hear your thoughts!

This list has been heavily inspired by this article:http://dockingbay416.com/darkhorses-strange-love-or-how-i-st...


 
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J Chav
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I've found that the meta seems to be super mobility. I've had many people boost or barrel roll out of bomb radius. So unless you have really high PS they aren't very reliable. However the new rules for Prox Mine has been fun to play with.
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tom tom
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Hi.
I don't play Bombers so I can't help about them but for Soontir I'd advise swapping the hull upgrade for a targeting computer.
PS 9 can boost or barrel roll in perfect position then PTL target lock offering a focus token for a deadly shot.
Soontir is da man
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Ad Astra Per Aspera
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Well, "Bombers suck, learn to play noob" is rooted in some truth. lol I have 3 tie bombers in my collection. The better I got, the less they were used. Today they just sit in the Plano case staring up at me as I go through various squad builds.

Bombers don't have any place in a competitive deck IMO. The problem is that laying down bombs is an inefficient use of squad points (relatively speaking) as well as actions. The better your opponent is, the more likely you'll be punished for using Bombers. However, for fun they are "fun."

Playing with bombers is a style of play I call "Hope Wing!" Hope Wing is where you're outmatched for one reason or another (player skill, or a mismatched squad) and you literally "hope" your opponent makes a mistake or plays badly enough to compensate for your own shortcomings. We all do this from time to time. With the case of Bombers you hope the opponent plays in a manner that makes the bombers efficient. But generally speaking, they just can't hang with the more efficient ships available.

I will say that Bombers in general are a lot of fun. They're sort of a stepping stone in the game. Everybody uses em early on. It's a fun mechanic.
 
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Tobias Böhnemann
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Danath wrote:
I've found that the meta seems to be super mobility. I've had many people boost or barrel roll out of bomb radius. So unless you have really high PS they aren't very reliable. However the new rules for Prox Mine has been fun to play with.


Well aquiering the necessary quantity of Proximity Mines is the problem there...the "Victory is mined!" article by Sable Gryphon was the reason for me to be interested in Bombers. I am aware of this problem, large base ships are a pain to hit. Small bases (exept for Phantoms obviously) arent too bad, they dont leave the radius unless they either fly hard 3 turn and boost or fly 5 straight and boost.
 
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Tobias Böhnemann
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Maddest Hatter wrote:

Playing with bombers is a style of play I call "Hope Wing!" Hope Wing is where you're outmatched for one reason or another (player skill, or a mismatched squad) and you literally "hope" your opponent makes a mistake or plays badly enough to compensate for your own shortcomings. We all do this from time to time. With the case of Bombers you hope the opponent plays in a manner that makes the bombers efficient. But generally speaking, they just can't hang with the more efficient ships available.

I will say that Bombers in general are a lot of fun. They're sort of a stepping stone in the game. Everybody uses em early on. It's a fun mechanic.


I am not entirely convinced by this attitude. It may be that you are right, but I could imagine that you just did not put in the practice required to make them work.

I am far from being an inexperienced player. My first move was to make my region fear the HWK-290 in my hands, now I am looking forward to doing the same with bombs. I just have to get the hang on them.
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XFreeBirdX wrote:

I am far from being an inexperienced player. My first move was to make my region fear the HWK-290 in my hands, now I am looking forward to doing the same with bombs. I just have to get the hang on them.


That's what Bombers do...they hang their squad points out to dry. I just feel that, at least in a competitive environment, Tie Bombers aren't efficient enough. They have a decent dial, but they swallow a lot of squad points on Bombs. Using the Bombs isn't very action efficient. And they're a bit tanky. I tried using Bombers as I felt they were an untapped resource and a viable ship. But I soon came to realize I really wished I had a different ship for the points in just about any situation. Dropping bombs while Whisper or Echo is bouncing around like a hyper-caffeinated spider monkey seems ludicrous. That's the most extreme example, but it's a common one.





 
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P C
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Bombers are best used as missile boats in my experience. Take two Scimitars, Major Rhymer and Captain Jonus, and load them up with Clusters or maybe even Prockets. Munitions Failsafes are good if you have the points.

Actually trying to bomb stuff is just... inefficient.
 
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Allen T
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There was a bomber/bomb build that did well a few waves back, called "Extra Damage" or something. Assault missiles and seismic charges.

Bombs can be fun in that it can cause your opponent to change the way he approaches and flys. Forcing them to waste an action to roll out of range, or causing them to pull a bank 3 when the best move would be a hard 1.

I'd recommend using normal Seismics first, and cutting a few points off Soontir (dropping the shield and hull and taking a stealth, for example) to try to get a bit more out of the bombers, or boost their PS to make dropping the bombs easier until you get a hang of it.
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Alex McKechnie
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Hey, I've been out of the game for a while and I'm just getting back in.

So tell me, how well do bombers preform against the Huge ships? Seems like in real life, bombing other fighters is stupid, but bombing capitol ships (and, really, land assets) is what those are for.

So, are bombs effective vs. the Transport and the CR-90?

--Alex
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Allen T
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Albertese wrote:
Hey, I've been out of the game for a while and I'm just getting back in.

So tell me, how well do bombers preform against the Huge ships? Seems like in real life, bombing other fighters is stupid, but bombing capitol ships (and, really, land assets) is what those are for.

So, are bombs effective vs. the Transport and the CR-90?

--Alex


As a free single damage, yes. I wouldn't make it a major part of the plan or anything, though.
 
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Cluster missiles aided by Captain Jonus' re-roll ability are the thing to do against the Huge Ships. The trick is to get all your bombers firing on the same bit of the ship at once, one after the other; that gives my four bombers a total of 24 attack dice in one round if I manage to get them all in the right place at once.
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Peter O
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Low PS bombers are best used with Proximity mines. As they tend to go first/early they can drop the prox before the other ships get to move. Seismic and Proton bombs need high PS or ESP.
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I play mostly Rebel side with ships that usually only have the 1 bank, not the turn. I also usually lack barrel roll in my builds.

For those reasons, I think, I always seem to get hit with mines when I play against bombers. I fly well and have played a lot of games, but the one or two friends that use Bombers do very well with them against me. I think here is a place for them against certain less manueverable Rebel builds.
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Tobias Böhnemann
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Maddest Hatter wrote:

That's what Bombers do...they hang their squad points out to dry. I just feel that, at least in a competitive environment, Tie Bombers aren't efficient enough. They have a decent dial, but they swallow a lot of squad points on Bombs. Using the Bombs isn't very action efficient. And they're a bit tanky. I tried using Bombers as I felt they were an untapped resource and a viable ship. But I soon came to realize I really wished I had a different ship for the points in just about any situation. Dropping bombs while Whisper or Echo is bouncing around like a hyper-caffeinated spider monkey seems ludicrous. That's the most extreme example, but it's a common one.



Well, dont try and bomb the Phantom, thats what Soontir is there for. I don't get why you think bombs are action-inefficient. You drop them befor you move. After you move you have your perform action step as usual.

I think a lot of people dont understand how this is to be played vs. Fat Han or Phantoms. You bomb the escort, not the centerpiece. Concerning the bombing itself, read the article I linked in the original post, it is very good You should be able to have each ship hit by at least one bomb.
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Lando
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Maddest Hatter wrote:


Bombers don't have any place in a competitive deck IMO. The problem is that laying down bombs is an inefficient use of squad points (relatively speaking) as well as actions. The better your opponent is, the more likely you'll be punished for using Bombers. However, for fun they are "fun."


I find they are more reliable than Tie Fighters when looking at a durability perspective. People also tend to shoot the bomber before a tie fighter if they are side by side even though they are extremly hard to kill. I run a single scimitar with a seismic + tie swarm. It does well enough at tournaments.
 
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I actually took the time to read that article and it really opened my eyes on a lot of things.

I have struggled with my little bomber flight before but I think I'm going to give them a whirl on Tuesday and see how they do.

Thanks!
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Jim Chadwick

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I finally got my hands on 4 Bombers to do the My Name is Jonus list that is Jonus + 3 Bombers w/ missiles and seismic charges. I played a few practice games against 3 E-wings a friend was running. Let me say that the approach is the most important thing to get right with Bombers. If you have missiles, they tend to forget that you have bombs. They expect you to hover just in range and fire. So, you jam up straight up the guts and drop bombs next turn. This strategem can be really hard to get right. You have to know your distances really well. I'm a bit rusty and just kept getting it wrong.

After getting in the right spot, you drop all your bombs at once and get a large field of enemy. If they came straight at you, you should get some hits on them. My problem was that I was facing E-wings that wanted to flank my formation. They were able to barrel roll out of the way and I only clipped one guy with a bomb. So, if you are going to face a bunch of arc dodgers, good luck.

I still think it's a valid tactic, especially if everyone goes with large ships. They are hard to avoid the bombs if you get them in a tight spot. I would say, though, that Homing Missiles are the same price and you might do more damage with them. It certainly would be easier. The problem with missiles is they don't get to modify their rolls. Homing do.

If you are looking for good Tie Bomber tricks, I recommend at least 2 things that can shoot missiles at the same target in the same turn. I used to take Vader w/ Concussion and a Bomber with the same to rip up one ship on the first pass. I would usually give Squad Leader to Vader for the Bomber, though. You need that late turn action. It works, though, and people don't really see it coming. Try to make them the flanking force.
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Jean Ouellet
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I agree that Bombers are a little harder to play with, but they have their place in the game.
I won a minor tournament using the squad below. Granted the star is Vessera with a HLC but the bomber is needed for the target lock and it has a very similar dial than the defender, so they fit well together.
I generally pick three different target to lock on with the three support ship and put them right up front, in hopes of grabbing the good real estate, and potentially action deny, than hit hard with Vessery!.... It worked well!

:
99-VESSERYHLC+TIEBOMBERSUPPORT

99 points
PILOTS
Colonel Vessery (45)
TIE Defender (35), Heavy Laser Cannon (7), Outmaneuver (3)
Scimitar Squadron Pilot (20) x 2
TIE Bomber (16), Cluster Missiles (4)
Academy Pilot (14)
TIE Fighter (12), Targeting Computer (2)


The Missiles sometimes worked, sometimes not (or do only one damage), and that is in essence the problem with missiles in general, but this squad does not really need it
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I ran a four-bomber list tonight against Dash, Wedge and a Rookie and won. Blew Wedge and the Rookie to bits on turn 3 with a Seismic Charge minefield!

Then had the fun of trying to get Dash in arc enough to hit him... fun list.

Jonus with VI, Homing Missiles, Hull Upgrade, Seismic Charge
3x Scimitar Sqn with Cluster Missiles and Seismic Charges

It was beautiful. I drove straight at Wedge and the Rookie, took a shield or two off Wedge from shooting on turn 2, then turn 3 he K-4'd them both behind me... straight into the 4-bomb minefield. BOOM went Wedge and the Rookie went down from 3H2S to 1 Hull! He popped under fire from the bombers.

Dash is a slippery customer though, and if my bombers had had a hard 1 turn they'd've had a much better time of it. Still, I shot him down in the end. Still had an untouched bomber left too.
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Jim Chadwick

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I like the hull upgrade on Jonus. I hadn't thought of that one. I do have a few points left over.

Do you feel that VI on Jonus is worth it? I've been debating it. I am not sure if I see the value in it if everyone else is going on 2's.

I can see you have trouble getting Dash in range with all the Cluster Missiles. I was going to go for Concussion Missiles or Proton Torpedoes for the insurance of hits, but Dark Horse (who wrote a great article about the list) uses Assault Missiles with 2 missiles. I can see this being able to destroy Swarms easier as you hit a Tie Fighter to give everyone a hit. Do it again, and then let them fly into a bomb field. There won't be much left after that. I'm going to see how it works against non-swarm lists. Everyone local seems to be in love with the large ships, so it might not be an issue. I usually love the Concussion Missiles as it averages to the most damage, but the Proton Torpedoes will most likely put some crits on them.
 
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Allen T
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Assault missiles are great if your opponent is flying something like Han with three Z95. He will either need to spread them out, giving you positional advantage, or just eat a damage on every Z95 within the very large range 1 space of Han.

Although, PtL Han in a Falcon with 3PO might be able to dodge an unmodified Assault missile.
 
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Jeff Dunford
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Has anybody considered trying Bombers in a control list? I was thinking something like:

Kath Scarlet + Mara Jade (or Rebel Captive) + Ion Cannon + Engine Upgrade (48)
Cpt Jonus + 2x Flechette Torpedoes (26)
Scimitar + 2x Ion Torpedoes (26)

Jonus uses Flechettes on any small ships outside Range 1 of Kath (note: doesn't have to hit). Kath uses Boost to get within Range 1 of most targets; ionizes something, then stresses everything nearby with Mara Jade. Scimitar ionizes whatever it can... and if it splashes Kath, at least it takes 2 before Kath herself gets ionized. This has the potential to stress + ionize an entire opposing squad for at least a couple rounds! The question is whether or not hit has the firepower to put the opponent away.

Consider dropping an Ion Torpedo to put Experimental Interface and Squad Leader on Jonus to give the Scimitar a (later) TL+Focus stack for that initial Ion Torpedo... or drop a Flechette Torpedo to squeeze in Munition Failsafe on the Scimitar.
 
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Jim Chadwick

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monkeykins wrote:
Assault missiles are great if your opponent is flying something like Han with three Z95. He will either need to spread them out, giving you positional advantage, or just eat a damage on every Z95 within the very large range 1 space of Han.

Although, PtL Han in a Falcon with 3PO might be able to dodge an unmodified Assault missile.


That's why Jonus makes it worth it. He can adjust 2 dice. It's the paranoid person in me that still wants to use Concussion or Proton Torps to ensure that you hit, but you can do so much more with the Assault.

@iNano78: Why use Kath Scarlet for the Firespray? Switch it to Krassis and you get a free re-roll on one die. If around Jonus than you can get 3 re-rolls. The PS is lower, but you use the special ability more.

Wow...I had to look up Proton Torpedoes. I hadn't seen them yet as I haven't gotten the Decimator yet. Those things are mean! Makes me want to use them in conjunction with bombs.
 
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Jeff Dunford
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heychadwick wrote:
@iNano78: Why use Kath Scarlet for the Firespray? Switch it to Krassis and you get a free re-roll on one die. If around Jonus than you can get 3 re-rolls. The PS is lower, but you use the special ability more.

Wow...I had to look up Proton Ion Torpedoes. I hadn't seen them yet as I haven't gotten the Decimator yet. Those things are mean! Makes me want to use them in conjunction with bombs.


I originally had Krassis + Seismic Charges instead of Kath, but figured Krassis' ability wouldn't be necessary with Jonus nearby (Ion Cannon is only 3 attack anyway; how often do you need to reroll all 3?), and I liked Kath's PS, especially since then she can safely move after both the Scimitar and Jonus (instead of between them, which could be awkward). Also Engine Upgrade is best with higher PS pilots. But if you go Krassis, you could put a Squad Leader on Jonus, which might be useful on the alpha strike and/or after he's out of Flechettes... so I could see benefits to either list.
 
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