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Subject: Mountain's difficulty (gamey) effects between two mountain tiles rss

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Pablo Klinkisch
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I've started playing this with a friend (well, actually, the Giro version) ans we are both thrilled with the game (using some of Leader 2's rules to make the peloton stronger, though).

But we have encountered what seems to be a gamey situation:

You risk cracking if you pay more movements than the risk on the tile, which is different from the rest of rules that always take into account the tile you started on, not the one you are on.

This is a good change to avoid coming from a flat region and paying 5 steps in the mountains without any risk but it does lead to some strange results between mountain tiles:

Say you have two mountain tiles of category 1. If you start your movement 4 steps before the border, you could move (with a climber) 4 steps to the border (just the limit on the tile) and then one additional step on the next tile (!).
This gets particularly absurd if the first tile is category 1 and the second one category 2 or 3: you might go on moving 6 or even 7 spaces on the mountains (!).

But this is how the rules read. Is this really intended like that? (if so, this might need a house rule...)
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Holger Doessing
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Sancherib wrote:
I've started playing this with a friend (well, actually, the Giro version) ans we are both thrilled with the game (using some of Leader 2's rules to make the peloton stronger, though).

But we have encountered what seems to be a gamey situation:

You risk cracking if you pay more movements than the risk on the tile, which is different from the rest of rules that always take into account the tile you started on, not the one you are on.

This is a good change to avoid coming from a flat region and paying 5 steps in the mountains without any risk but it does lead to some strange results between mountain tiles:

Say you have two mountain tiles of category 1. If you start your movement 4 steps before the border, you could move (with a climber) 4 steps to the border (just the limit on the tile) and then one additional step on the next tile (!).
This gets particularly absurd if the first tile is category 1 and the second one category 2 or 3: you might go on moving 6 or even 7 spaces on the mountains (!).

But this is how the rules read. Is this really intended like that? (if so, this might need a house rule...)

This is how the rule is intended, and it actually emulates real life quite well. The idea behind a breakaway on a climb is to exert a lot of effort on the climb and (somewhat) rest on the following downhill stretch. As you pointed out, the rules reward breakaways on climbs by allowing riders to 'skip' difficult stretches. However, it's not a bug, it's a feature.
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Pablo Klinkisch
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Hmmm, but I am not talking about the breakaway itself but the gamey tactic of positioning yourself _on a mountain tile_ 4 steps before the end of the tile to be able to use the limit of the tile you are on and the limit of the next tile, thus being able to move 3 paying steps.
Why would it matter where a hex starts or stops?

Maybe I shoudl try to illustrate this, will try to do it later
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Holger Doessing
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Sancherib wrote:
Hmmm, but I am not talking about the breakaway itself but the gamey tactic of positioning yourself _on a mountain tile_ 4 steps before the end of the tile to be able to use the limit of the tile you are on and the limit of the next tile, thus being able to move 3 paying steps.
Why would it matter where a hex starts or stops?

Maybe I shoudl try to illustrate this, will try to do it later

Well, in real life a rider on a climb will want to break away at the point on the climb where he knows he can reach the summit without cracking, but he also doesn't want to jump too late, as that would allow his pursuers to catch up (too easily).

Regardless, this is definitely not the only time where positioning is key in this game. In fact, I think that is the crux of Leader 1 and most other good racing games. Position is everything in regards to drafting, taking the shorter path to go further with less energy, forcing your opponents to ride over potholes, pushing your opponents to spend extra energy just to maintain their drafting position in a breakaway group or sprint train and so forth. Setting yourself up for a jump at just the right spot on the course is just another tactical detail to consider during the game and might be part of your overall strategy for that course.

Anyway, feel free to post a crude illustration (or photo) of the situation you're thinking of. Images always help when discussing these things.
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Pablo Klinkisch
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Ok, here we go with a picture



The climbers show the starting position, the leaders the arrival position.
Let's start with the first tile:

Black moves 4 spaces and stops to avoid a break.
Orange moves 4 + 1 on the next tile effectively gaining one space just because of the two tiles.
Given that _both_ tiles are category 1, I'd expect here that you can't use more than one pay move _total_ between both tiles, not that depending on your position you get one more paying move...

But look at the last two tiles:
White moves 4 spaces (1 paying)
Green moves 4 + 2 (!)
So green managed to move in a 1 restricted terrain three paying spaces!

That is what I find annoying...

Of course, a 2-tule followed by a 1 tile would have the reverse effect, but I'm not sure if it compensates the gaminess.

But this is just a minor thing, the game is great
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Holger Doessing
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Sancherib wrote:
Black moves 4 spaces and stops to avoid a break.
Orange moves 4 + 1 on the next tile effectively gaining one space just because of the two tiles.

I don't think this situation is really well covered by the rules. Personally, I'd consider the two cat. 1 tiles as one. Generally, we interpret the rules as imposing a limit on paid movement within category zones rather than tiles. One could argue that this is not the rules as written, but it feels like this is the intent of the rules.


Sancherib wrote:
But look at the last two tiles:
White moves 4 spaces (1 paying)
Green moves 4 + 2 (!)
So green managed to move in a 1 restricted terrain three paying spaces!

That is what I find annoying...

Of course, a 2-tule followed by a 1 tile would have the reverse effect, but I'm not sure if it compensates the gaminess.

But this is just a minor thing, the game is great

Your assessment is correct. I will only add that I think the white rider got himself into this mess by moving to the outside lane, whereas green rider played well. He used the terrain to his advantage and was able to force white rider to fall behind (or over-exert himself in an effort to keep up).
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Daniel Kazaniecki
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Sancherib wrote:
(using some of Leader 2's rules to make the peloton stronger, though)

Yay modest

Sancherib wrote:

IMO, you shouldn't be playing this way, it kinda asks for rule abuse, as you explain above. In real life (and in our Leader 2 races), categories are given to entire mountains, not parts of it. And then of course your non-risky moves are counted independently from whether you jumped from one tile to another. Thus, it is not natural to apply different categories throughout a single ascent. And since a picture says more than a thousand words:



Frohes Neues
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