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Subject: Great article...post "New Atheist" period.. rss

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Trey Stone
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http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/8885481/after-the-new-at...

Religion is complicated...heck, life is complicated. But the "New Athiest" movement was destined to peter out anyway, as its cartoon approach to religion fit neither it nor those who worship.
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Philip Thomas
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Shame. I rather liked the simplicity of "New atheism": and there was truth there too, of a sort.

But "Do you believe in God?" "It's complicated" has a certain attraction too.
 
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CHAPEL
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And yet Crossfit still thrives. There is no justice in the world.
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Chad Ellis
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Trey,

Can you point me to a list of books, articles and movies that you think are really bad?

What? No. No reason.
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William Boykin
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I think Bill Mahrer (with assists from Sam Harris) did more to make the New Atheist's look bad than Dawkins- at least in the United States. He managed to be both completely bigoted AND weaselly facile at the same time!!

Darilian
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Boaty McBoatface
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An alternative (and more recent) opinion.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-arel/new-atheism-is-it-dea...
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Philip Thomas
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Yeah, new atheism clearly isn't dead while Dawkins breathes...

I
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Boaty McBoatface
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Philip Thomas wrote:
Yeah, new atheism clearly isn't dead while Dawkins breathes...

I
I would add that atheism seems to still be on the rise. Moreover the aim of the "new atheists" was a more secular society, I think it is fair to say we have one that is more secular than when they started. It's hard to see how he has failed, especially when we hear about "the war on Christmas", "the war on Christians", "the war on faith".

It seems to be he is still the bogy man to religionists, and that means he has not failed.
 
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Jon Badolato
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The number of people who report themselves as non religious or belonging to no particular religion or sect has been on the increase for quite a while now. As we get further and further from the origins of dominant religions like Islam and Christianity I think you will see that trend continue. As new religions develop and supplant the older more established ones and as cultures change and rise and fall it is inevitable. After all, how many people stilll worship the Roman gods or the Egyptian deities ? While I am sure there are those who do, they have inevitably become a very small minority.
It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall 1000 or 2000 years from now to see what new religions hold sway and to see how the current ones in vogue have held up over that time frame.
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Boaty McBoatface
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jonb wrote:
The number of people who report themselves as non religious or belonging to no particular religion or sect has been on the increase for quite a while now. As we get further and further from the origins of dominant religions like Islam and Christianity I think you will see that trend continue. As new religions develop and supplant the older more established ones and as cultures change and rise and fall it is inevitable. After all, how many people stilll worship the Roman gods or the Egyptian deities ? While I am sure there are those who do, they have inevitably become a very small minority.
It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall 1000 or 2000 years from now to see what new religions hold sway and to see how the current ones in vogue have held up over that time frame.
I do not disagree that this trend has been going on a while, but as this was the aim of the "New Atheists" (a more secular society) I am not sure how they have failed.

All the ever were was a small (and loud) minority of atheists that the media took a liking to (becasue they were loud and good for an argument). They were not (and never were) the atheist movement (and more then the WBC was for Christianity). It is not that they have failed in their agenda, it the fact that the media no longer find them amusing.
 
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Ken
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Meh. I think the article overstates things quite a bit. Dawkins, Hitchens, etc. got press because they were good for a sound bite, not because they really represented any significant percentage of atheists. They had their time to shine (perhaps motivated by 9/11, as suggested, though I think that's also a stretch) as the poster-children of atheism and that time has faded. There were many atheists that thought their approach sucked long ago, and at least as many willing to recognize that religious institutions can be good on a variety of levels.

I don't think they were ever good representatives of atheism, I don't think that even a significant minority of atheists ever thought their approach a good one, and I don't think that they had anywhere close to the influence suggested except as a lightning rod for religious people to react to.

Meh.
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Of course. The atheist movement is like the "occupy" movement and followed by a bunch of idealist douchebags, it was bound to fail. None of their know-it-all ego's can handle not being in the lead and eventually falls apart.

Too many douchebags and not enough sheep..

That is why religion works, just a few douchebags and a bunch of sheep. The perfect mix.
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Trey Stone
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
Trey,

Can you point me to a list of books, articles and movies that you think are really bad?

What? No. No reason.


In my reviews, I tend to point out stuff I like more than I don't.

http://junius-stone.blogspot.com/
 
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Trey Stone
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Darilian wrote:
I think Bill Mahrer (with assists from Sam Harris) did more to make the New Atheist's look bad than Dawkins- at least in the United States. He managed to be both completely bigoted AND weaselly facile at the same time!!

Darilian


I actually thought Religulous was fun and even a bit fair (not everyone on it was a looney or an idiot and some of them gave Maher a taste of his own medicine), but that monologue at the end where he just goes off the rails...

...other than that, it's pretty good. I have it in my library.
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Trey Stone
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slatersteven wrote:
Philip Thomas wrote:
Yeah, new atheism clearly isn't dead while Dawkins breathes...

I
I would add that atheism seems to still be on the rise. Moreover the aim of the "new atheists" was a more secular society, I think it is fair to say we have one that is more secular than when they started. It's hard to see how he has failed, especially when we hear about "the war on Christmas", "the war on Christians", "the war on faith".

It seems to be he is still the bogy man to religionists, and that means he has not failed.


Is it actually "more secular than when they started"? Assuming this is true (I certainly am not), can you prove correlation=causation?

It is a curious thing to bring up the various "wars" that Fox News goes on about, when at the same time, the secular Left keeps yelling back, those guys are full of it.

 
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Chad Ellis
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I think the great majority of atheists have no issue with religious people. How can we? Religious people are among our friends, our families, etc. To the extent that there's a war or a push-back, it's not about shutting religion up or making it go into the closet but about challenging the idea that religion deserves special status and treatment. For every person actually suing to get rid of a nativity scene there are a hundred or thousand who would just like religious views to be equal under the law and in our national conversation with other worldviews. We don't need you to shut up about what you believe, but if what you believe is that we have no morality (for example) then we'd appreciate the basic decency of a) not saying so to our kids and b) not getting indignant over those of us that do look down on religion.

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MWChapel wrote:
Of course. The atheist movement is like the "occupy" movement and followed by a bunch of idealist douchebags, it was bound to fail. None of their know-it-all ego's can handle not being in the lead and eventually falls apart.

Too many douchebags and not enough sheep..

That is why religion works, just a few douchebags and a bunch of sheep. The perfect mix.


One of my Christmas gifts was A True Believer, a classic take on mass movements, what makes them works, and what doesn't. While some of the books is pretty dated, its analysis on what makes a movement succeed is very good. It's not really about having too many leaders, but about a unifying ideology that appeals to followers. Occupy connected very well with those kinds of people: It just failed miserably at having a set of actions that gave people hope, regardless of whether they'd be effective or not.

We see a success in this respect in Spain's Podemos, a new party doing very well preaching a local equivalent of what Hugo Chavez used to sell in Venezuela.

New atheism failed even earlier: It made no recommendations, and didn't even channel people's frustration. Let's be close to each other in our shared atheism?!

This is also, BTW, why libertarianism doesn't work as a mass movement. There is no positive unifying message that gives hope. I'd even give more chances to the Venus Project people, even though they preach nonsense.

It's a good book, and it's short, so go read it.
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tstone wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Philip Thomas wrote:
Yeah, new atheism clearly isn't dead while Dawkins breathes...

I
I would add that atheism seems to still be on the rise. Moreover the aim of the "new atheists" was a more secular society, I think it is fair to say we have one that is more secular than when they started. It's hard to see how he has failed, especially when we hear about "the war on Christmas", "the war on Christians", "the war on faith".

It seems to be he is still the bogy man to religionists, and that means he has not failed.


Is it actually "more secular than when they started"? Assuming this is true (I certainly am not), can you prove correlation=causation?
No, but that does not matter, even if they did not achieve the result themselves, they still got what they wanted, hardly failure.
Quote:

It is a curious thing to bring up the various "wars" that Fox News goes on about, when at the same time, the secular Left keeps yelling back, those guys are full of it.

I think that is my point (and someone else's too) The "new atheists" were just bogymen used to scare certain kinds of Christians. The whole "war on Xness" was toss. But as long as they remain the bogyman they are not a flash in the pan that is fading away. I bring them up for that reason, every time some tit bangs on about teh wicked secularists and their attacks on faith the like of Dawkins a Hitchins (who I do not think was actually an atheist anyway, just someone who found something to shout about) and their ideology is resurrected.

Not by the people who never supported them anyway, atheists. But by those too stupid not to feed them. People like you keep them and their values alive and in the public eye.
 
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MWChapel wrote:
And yet Crossfit still thrives. There is no justice in the world.


Somebody explain the hate for CrossFit?
 
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Philip Thomas
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I think it is unfair to cast the "New atheists" as just a bunch of attention seekers: the insight that religion has been associated with many of the world's evils may not have been original, but it was still accurate- and in some senses even profound.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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Philip Thomas wrote:
I think it is unfair to cast the "New atheists" as just a bunch of attention seekers: the insight that religion has been associated with many of the world's evils may not have been original, but it was still accurate- and in some senses even profound.
Exactly it was not a new idea, what was new was the media decided to take notice.
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I think the "new atheist" movement has done an excellent service to the Christian church in the US: having been the dominant cultural religion for quite a while, the church is full of people who participate in its rituals not out of a commitment to its ideals, but because they want the cultural or emotional benefits. New atheism opposes this forcefully, and I say more power to them. If you are going to live your life like an atheist (and many who call themselves Christians do), it is far better to profess atheism than to profess Christ. Christ spits the lukewarm out of his mouth because, quite frankly, they're in the most precarious position with regard to him that anyone can be in. I do not view the increased number of people professing no religion as a significant change; rather, it is a case of those who were never part of Christ realizing the truth about their status. And while I weep that it's true of them, I can't help but view it overall as a good thing.
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slatersteven wrote:
Philip Thomas wrote:
I think it is unfair to cast the "New atheists" as just a bunch of attention seekers: the insight that religion has been associated with many of the world's evils may not have been original, but it was still accurate- and in some senses even profound.
Exactly it was not a new idea, what was new was the media decided to take notice.


Not all of them were, but some of the leaders were certainly interested in and skilled at self-promotion.

The other thing that certainly helped was the timing of the rise of the internet. The ideas in New Atheism have a lot of the same resonence and draw as religious thought, so the ease of broadcast of the ideas over the net along with the ease of building narrowcast self-reinforcing groups over the net amplified the movement enormously.

 
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twomillionbucks wrote:
I think the "new atheist" movement has done an excellent service to the Christian church in the US: having been the dominant cultural religion for quite a while, the church is full of people who participate in its rituals not out of a commitment to its ideals, but because they want the cultural or emotional benefits. New atheism opposes this forcefully, and I say more power to them. If you are going to live your life like an atheist (and many who call themselves Christians do), it is far better to profess atheism than to profess Christ. Christ spits the lukewarm out of his mouth because, quite frankly, they're in the most precarious position with regard to him that anyone can be in. I do not view the increased number of people professing no religion as a significant change; rather, it is a case of those who were never part of Christ realizing the truth about their status. And while I weep that it's true of them, I can't help but view it overall as a good thing.


"The best path to hell is the most gradual one, with no sudden turns, no signposts, no warnings of danger. Cards are better than murder, if cards will do the trick." C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape letters

Insofar are as the new atheism is a giant signpost or wake-up call, perhaps you are right. Yet I wonder, if Christianity gives emotional solace to the vulnerable, is it right to rip that solace from them?
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twomillionbucks wrote:
I think the "new atheist" movement has done an excellent service to the Christian church in the US: having been the dominant cultural religion for quite a while, the church is full of people who participate in its rituals not out of a commitment to its ideals, but because they want the cultural or emotional benefits. New atheism opposes this forcefully, and I say more power to them. If you are going to live your life like an atheist (and many who call themselves Christians do), it is far better to profess atheism than to profess Christ. Christ spits the lukewarm out of his mouth because, quite frankly, they're in the most precarious position with regard to him that anyone can be in. I do not view the increased number of people professing no religion as a significant change; rather, it is a case of those who were never part of Christ realizing the truth about their status. And while I weep that it's true of them, I can't help but view it overall as a good thing.


Your Jesus sounds like a douche. Glad I don't know Him.
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