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Subject: Two-Player Variant Contradiction? rss

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J. Romano
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Hi,

I'm still trying to figure out the rules for Shear Panic's two-player variant, and I'm confused about two sentences that seem to contradict each other.

One sentence reads:

Quote:
At the end of a turn you must have more free actions on your control mat than mutton buttons on the extra control mat.

This sentence implies that, at the of a turn, the number of free actions on a player's control mat and the number of mutton buttons on the extra control mat can never be equal.

But another sentence (further on) reads:

Quote:
If you have more buttons on your extra mat than actions remaining when you move onto a second brown space of a field, you must remove a button of your choice (to bring your counts to be equal), and lose 2 points.

This sentence explicitly says that the counts can be equal. Yet the first sentence says they cannot be equal!

So is this a contradiction, or am I missing something? If it's a contradiction, which sentence is correct (and which is wrong)?

In other words, according to the published two-player variant rules, can the buttons on the extra mat and the actions remaining ever be equal?

Thanks in advance for any input.
 
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Nick Fisk
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That's weird. This bit used to mention Shire Games, and tell you all how wonderful we are. But it seems to have got deleted. Let's see what happens this time ....
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Is you answer in here ...

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/128456

?


N.

 
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John Earles
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Quote:
At the end of a turn you must have more free actions on your control mat than mutton buttons on the extra control mat.


This is a core role - a general statement that defines a basic game rule.

Quote:
If you have more buttons on your extra mat than actions remaining when you move onto a second brown space of a field, you must remove a button of your choice (to bring your counts to be equal), and lose 2 points.


This is a follow-on sentence to another rule - the first sentence of the paragraph - which adds a pre-condition to the usage of "extra mat" buttons:

Quote:
If your normal action causes you to finish on the second brown space of a field, you cannot play extra flock market movement that round.


So despite the first rule setting a general rule, the second rule augments it by saying you cannot take a second move if you land on the second brown space.

If you get caught in this situation, your "extra mat" count could become greater than your free actions and you will incur the extra penalty - lose 2 points and be forced to remove one of your "extra mat" buttons. This action will still leave you with an "equal" count, and you will therefore be forced to continue using "extra mat" buttons on subsequent turns.
 
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J. Romano
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For clarification sake, here are the two rules I refer to in this post:

Rule 1:
Quote:
At the end of a turn you must have more free actions on your control mat than mutton buttons on the extra control mat.

Rule 2:
Quote:
If your normal action causes you to finish on the second brown space of a field, you cannot play extra flock market movement that round.

-------------------------
And now my reply post:
-------------------------

jearles wrote:
So despite the first rule setting a general rule, the second rule augments it by saying you cannot take a second move if you land on the second brown space.

I agree with you here.

jearles wrote:
If you get caught in this situation, your "extra mat" count could become greater than your free actions and you will incur the extra penalty

Now here's where I disagree: If you interpret rule 1 as a general rule then that means that, unless rule 2 intervenes, you will always have more free actions on your control mat than mutton buttons on the extra control mat (and if I understand you correctly, you also agree with this).

But if rule 2 intervenes, then it's possible to have an equal number of free actions (on your control mat) and mutton buttons (on the extra control mat).

Here's the importat part: Even though rule 2 can make the two counts equal, it can't make the mutton buttons outnumber the free actions on your control mat, because rule 1 wouldn't normally allow the counts to be equal in the first place.

So if rule 1 wouldn't normally allow the counts to be equal, how could it allow the mutton buttons to outnumber the free actions?

I'll try to clarify: If rule 1 would allow the counts to be equal only under the special case of rule 2, then there is no way to have more mutton buttons than free actions.

And if you can't have more mutton buttons than free actions, then the following statement, which says:

Quote:
If you have more buttons on your extra mat than actions remaining when you move onto a second brown space of a field, you must remove a button of your choice (to bring your counts to be equal), and lose 2 points.

doesn't make any sense (because it is logically impossible to have more mutton buttons on the extra control mat than free actions on your main control mat).

Am I the only one who thinks this? So far, nobody else seems to agree with me, so I'm still wondering if I'm missing a rule somewhere.

Thanks for your input, anyway...
 
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Maarten D. de Jong
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Personally, I think the problem lies, as is often the case, with translation errors. The Dutch version says in 'rule 1':

Quote:
At the end of his turn, a player may never have more wool buttons on the extra action card than he has unused actions.

The Lamonts write on this forum:

Quote:
A Player must not be left with less free actions on their control mat than mutton buttons on the extra control mat by the end of their turn. I.e. at the end of the round, actions left must always be more than or equal to unused mutton buttons on the extra control mat.

Apparently, in your edition, the negation was removed, but in doing so, the equality was removed as well. You see that the Dutch version states it differently yet again, but adheres to what the Lamonts intend. Nevertheless it seems to me that the -2 penalty is a rather rare occurrence, something you'd not really split any hairs over.
 
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J. Romano
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cymric wrote:
Personally, I think the problem lies, as is often the case, with translation errors.

Wow! Thanks for the quick reply!

I guess Scottish is more similar to Dutch than it is to English!
 
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Maarten D. de Jong
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With hindsight, 'translation error' was a silly choice of words. But somewhere along the printing process, the meaning changed---that much is clear.
 
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John Earles
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Quote:
Now here's where I disagree: If you interpret rule 1 as a general rule then that means that, unless rule 2 intervenes, you will always have more free actions on your control mat than mutton buttons on the extra control mat (and if I understand you correctly, you also agree with this).

But if rule 2 intervenes, then it's possible to have an equal number of free actions (on your control mat) and mutton buttons (on the extra control mat).

Here's the importat part: Even though rule 2 can make the two counts equal, it can't make the mutton buttons outnumber the free actions on your control mat, because rule 1 wouldn't normally allow the counts to be equal in the first place.


At the risk of being completely anal. And what happens if you get caught twice by Rule #2?

Once ties the count, twice would put you with one more. Rule #1 cannot force you to play 2 extra mat buttons and it cannot allow you to not play a normal move, so once your counts have become "equal" they will stay equal. And if you get caught again... There are two 2nd brown spaces, in field #2 and #4.

That's all I was trying to say. I did explicitly use the word could:
Quote:
jearles wrote:
If you get caught in this situation, your "extra mat" count could become greater than your free actions and you will incur the extra penalty


Sorry for confusing the issue...
 
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Maarten D. de Jong
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jearles wrote:
At the risk of being completely anal. And what happens if you get caught twice by Rule #2?

Under which rules? The Dutch/Lamont-ones, or those from our esteemed Fantomius---which I surmise to be Mayfair or Zoch or whatever ?
 
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J. Romano
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Quote:
And what happens if you get caught twice by Rule #2?

I'm going to respond by using the Dutch/Lamont rules that our esteemed Cymric filled us in on since, to be honest, they're the only ones that make sense to me.

Quote:
Once ties the count, twice would put you with one more.

Actually, each time ties the count.

In other words, if rule 2 intervenes and you have more mutton buttons on your extra mat than free spaces, you resolve that with the following rule:

Quote:
If you have more buttons on your extra mat than actions remaining when you move onto a second brown space of a field, you must remove a button of your choice (to bring your counts to be equal), and lose 2 points.

In other words, in such a case you remove a button (with a two-point penalty) to make your count equal again.

Quote:
And if you get caught again... There are two 2nd brown spaces, in field #2 and #4.

Yes, there are two brown spaces in two of the fields (for a total of four), but rule 2 only applies to the second brown space in a field. So the 2-point penalty can happen no more than twice per game.

And as Cymric already said, it doesn't happen very often anyway.

Quote:
Sorry for confusing the issue...

Don't be. Like you, I like to understand all the rules, too. (After all, if you don't know the rules, how can you be sure you're playing the game?)

I hope this helps, John.
 
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John Earles
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LOL Usually when I get this caught up in a discussion I've missed something silly, but in the spirit of finishing my thought completely.

Quote:
Actually, each time ties the count.

In other words, if rule 2 intervenes and you have more mutton buttons on your extra mat than free spaces, you resolve that with the following rule:

Quote:
If you have more buttons on your extra mat than actions remaining when you move onto a second brown space of a field, you must remove a button of your choice (to bring your counts to be equal), and lose 2 points.

In other words, in such a case you remove a button (with a two-point penalty) to make your count equal again.


But the first time you could be tied, you don't have "more" buttons. So the -2 penalty would not apply, and therefore you would not remove a button.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turn | Free Actions | Extra Buttons
------------------------------------------------------------------------
0 | 12 | 5
1 | 11 | 5
2 | 10 | 5
3 | 9 | 5
4 | 8 | 5
5 | 7 | 5
6 | 6 | 5
7 | 5 | 5 (2nd brown space in the 2nd field)
8 | 4 | 4
9 | 3 | 3
10 | 2 | 2
11 | 1 | 1
12 | 0 | 1 (2nd brown space in the 4th field - Game Ends)
------------------------------------------------------------------------


On Turn 7 you get caught by Rule #2, you've moved onto the 2nd field's 2nd brown space. You've played a Free Action (having placed your 7th button on your "normal play" mat) so you are tied at 5 buttons and 5 Free Actions.

On turn 12 you get caught again, you've played your last free action and moved onto the 4th field's 2nd brown space. You've ended the game, but have 1 extra button left.

Quote:
And as Cymric already said, it doesn't happen very often anyway.

I agree 100%! meeple
 
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Doug Orleans
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Here's my guess as to what the Mayfair 2-player rules are trying to say:

If after step C the flock marker is on the second brown space of a field, you may not use a button from the extra mat to move the flock marker again. If in this case you have the same number of buttons on the extra mat as free actions on your own mat, you must discard one button from the extra mat and lose two points.
 
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Douglas S
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DougOrleans wrote:
Here's my guess as to what the Mayfair 2-player rules are trying to say:

If after step C the flock marker is on the second brown space of a field, you may not use a button from the extra mat to move the flock marker again. If in this case you have the same number of buttons on the extra mat as free actions on your own mat, you must discard one button from the extra mat and lose two points.


Sounds clear here. Thanks, Doug. Now, if only we could get confirmation on your wording.

-(another) Doug
 
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J. Romano
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DougOrleans wrote:
If in this case you have the same number of buttons on the extra mat as free actions on your own mat, you must discard one button from the extra mat and lose two points.

I disagree slightly. You are allowed to have the same number, just not more (that is, more mutton buttons on the extra mat than free spaces on your main control mat).

Therefore, I think the above statement should be worded like this:

If in this case you have more buttons on the extra mat than free actions on your own mat, you must discard one button from the extra mat and lose two points.

In other words, you said the following condition must always hold true at the end of a turn:

free actions on main mat > mutton buttons on extra mat

but I say this:

free actions on main mat >= mutton buttons on extra mat

I say this for two reasons:

1. If I understand user Cymric correctly, this is what the Dutch rules say.
2. If the quantities of mutton buttons (on the extra mat) must always be less than the free actions left, then there would be no way to take your last action (because it's impossible to have less than zero mutton buttons left to use).

I hope this clarifies things (instead of muddling them).
 
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Douglas S
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official word is needed!
 
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Doug Orleans
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I think you're right; ">=" also jibes with the 2-player variant that Fraser Lamont posted here. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/105073
 
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