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BattleCON: Fate of Indines» Forums » Rules

Subject: Welsie Acktern Rule Clarifications rss

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Well this was inevitable.

What happens to the Recursor Counters on a clashed attack pair?

Does getting stunned count as "fail[ing] to hit with an attack"?

Does getting Pulsed or Cancelled count as "fail[ing] to hit with an attack"?
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Brad Rosenquist
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tankbard wrote:
Well this was inevitable.

What happens to the Recursor Counters on a clashed attack pair?

Does getting stunned count as "fail[ing] to hit with an attack"?

Does getting Pulsed or Cancelled count as "fail[ing] to hit with an attack"?


1. Hmm...this one I don't know. Welsie's UA seems to state that Recursor Counters stay on attacks only "while in her discard piles." But Discordant gives a bonus for each Recursor "on it" at Reveal. So when exactly do Recursors disappear? And yeah, do they stay on the Style, Base, or complete attack pair? If Discordant gets Clashed, does it lose the Recursor or keep it when a new Base is chosen?

2. Not necessarily. If you get stunned prior to attacking (you didn't have priority), then yes, the attack would fail. But if you did have priority and hit the opponent, then that opponent stunned you, the attack did not fail.

3. Yes, but when Pulsed you wouldn't cycle anyway so your attack would go back to your hand. When cancelled, that attack would go to your discard and would not get a Recursor. Now, your next attack might hit, and then that would get a Recursor, which would mean Discard 1 would have 2 attack pairs and 1 Recursor. But, that would stop you from being able to use a Decision Counter on that Discard Pile.
 
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Daniel DeMars
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kurisenshi wrote:


3. Yes, but when Pulsed you wouldn't cycle anyway so your attack would go back to your hand. When cancelled, that attack would go to your discard and would not get a Recursor. Now, your next attack might hit, and then that would get a Recursor, which would mean Discard 1 would have 2 attack pairs and 1 Recursor. But, that would stop you from being able to use a Decision Counter on that Discard Pile.


Correction on how Pulse works - when you're opponent plays Pulse (i.e. you "get pulsed") your attack and discards do cycle as normal (your opponent's - the person who played the Pulse - discards don't cycle). And yes, being Pulsed counts as failing to hit with that attack.
 
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Dylan Thurston
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Can someone post Welsie's final character kit on the wiki?
 
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Brad Rosenquist
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LeinadColtrane wrote:
kurisenshi wrote:


3. Yes, but when Pulsed you wouldn't cycle anyway so your attack would go back to your hand. When cancelled, that attack would go to your discard and would not get a Recursor. Now, your next attack might hit, and then that would get a Recursor, which would mean Discard 1 would have 2 attack pairs and 1 Recursor. But, that would stop you from being able to use a Decision Counter on that Discard Pile.


Correction on how Pulse works - when you're opponent plays Pulse (i.e. you "get pulsed") your attack and discards do cycle as normal (your opponent's - the person who played the Pulse - discards don't cycle). And yes, being Pulsed counts as failing to hit with that attack.


Oops! Thanks for the correction, Daniel
 
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Dylan Thurston
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I still hope someone updates the Wiki for Welsie--she's the only Fate character without her kit up. But if she's like the latest playtesting version, I don't understand this comment:
kurisenshi wrote:
1. Hmm...this one I don't know. Welsie's UA seems to state that Recursor Counters stay on attacks only "while in her discard piles." But Discordant gives a bonus for each Recursor "on it" at Reveal. So when exactly do Recursors disappear?

Recursors don't disappear until the attack is recycled, do they?
 
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Adam Rouse
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I am not sure I understand this character. She seems to be able to play the same attack pair repeatedly as long as there are recursor counters on it. I got in a situation where my opponent and I were in opposite corners of the arena and I just kept doing that long range attack that ignores stun guard so he couldn't attack. He didn't have any start of beat advance effects. Dash would have gotten him hwlfway there, but I his attacks would still have been too low priority to close in on me until dash cycled back, if I remember right, or so he said. Is there anything I might have missed about her ability?
 
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Daniel DeMars
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adamxpaul wrote:
I am not sure I understand this character. She seems to be able to play the same attack pair repeatedly as long as there are recursor counters on it. I got in a situation where my opponent and I were in opposite corners of the arena and I just kept doing that long range attack that ignores stun guard so he couldn't attack. He didn't have any start of beat advance effects. Dash would have gotten him hwlfway there, but I his attacks would still have been too low priority to close in on me until dash cycled back, if I remember right, or so he said. Is there anything I might have missed about her ability?


That attack in particular will become slower (and more damaging) as you continue to hit with it (since it loses 1 priority for every recursor counter on it, and it gains a recursor counter every time it hits), so your opponent should be able to outspeed it fairly quickly (unless they are extremely slow, and then they might have a stun immunity style). They can also Pulse or Cancel it, to disrupt the combo
 
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Dylan Thurston
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adamxpaul wrote:
I am not sure I understand this character. She seems to be able to play the same attack pair repeatedly as long as there are recursor counters on it. I got in a situation where my opponent and I were in opposite corners of the arena and I just kept doing that long range attack that ignores stun guard so he couldn't attack. He didn't have any start of beat advance effects. Dash would have gotten him hwlfway there, but I his attacks would still have been too low priority to close in on me until dash cycled back, if I remember right, or so he said. Is there anything I might have missed about her ability?
It sounds like you were playing her correctly. Yes, she can keep spamming attacks, so her opponent is advised not to get into positions where a spammed attack is unavoidable. What character was she facing?
 
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LeinadColtrane wrote:
That attack in particular will become slower (and more damaging) as you continue to hit with it

I'm guessing you're referring to Discordant Grasp. Anomalous Drive and Quandary Shot might also be spammable, though at lower priority. All of these can be clashed by most characters if you see them coming.

Which, of course, returns us to the first question. If you clash Grasp away from Discordant Grasp, does that mean that Discordant Grasp has failed to hit and loses all Recursors? Could you have +3 Power / -3 Priority before the clash and then 0/0 afterward for your post-clash attack?
 
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Adam Rouse
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Larimore Burman. We are both fairly inexperienced, him much moreso. I don't think we were doing the -1 priority for my recursor tokens, and he didn't have enough force for pulse (we were doing the force variant instead of the normal special card).
 
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Charge 1 Dragonbreath Dash into Charge 3 Dire Shot? "Ignore Stun Guard" doesn't matter if the attack doesn't do damage, or if the target has Stun Immunity.
 
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Dylan Thurston
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Or just a Warmage's Grasp, once Discordant Grasp has hit at least once. There are characters who would be in much worse shape in that position.

Do note that Welsie is probably the hardest character in the game.
 
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Dylan Thurston
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Looking through this old thread, I saw one thing that struck me as off.
kurisenshi wrote:
tankbard wrote:
Does getting Pulsed or Cancelled count as "fail[ing] to hit with an attack"?

3. Yes, but when Pulsed you wouldn't cycle anyway so your attack would go back to your hand. When cancelled, that attack would go to your discard and would not get a Recursor. Now, your next attack might hit, and then that would get a Recursor, which would mean Discard 1 would have 2 attack pairs and 1 Recursor. But, that would stop you from being able to use a Decision Counter on that Discard Pile.

The Pulse was addressed above, but Cancel also doesn't work quite like this: the Canceled pair goes to your Discard 1, which probably already has a pair and might or might not have a Recursor Counter on it. That won't change. But you won't be able to re-use that attack, because of the wording on the Decision cards.

(Hmm, I just realised that Welsie would struggle against Lixis.)
 
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Dylan Thurston
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I'd love an official ruling on the clashing question, but here's my take now that I actually have the cards.

tankbard wrote:
What happens to the Recursor Counters on a clashed attack pair?
When the attack is clashed, I would say that she "fails to hit" with that attack, so loses the Recursor Counters. If she hits with whatever follow-up occurs, then naturally she gets another Recorsor Counter.

In particular, this means that in a beat where she reuses Discordant X, her priority would go up immediately after the first clash, and she has a better chance of winning priority after that.
 
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Regarding your Cancel response, it's not just whether an attack gets a Recursor. It's also about whether attacks lose Recursors. For example if I recur an attack with lots of Recursors that ends up getting cancelled, but it doesn't lose those Recursors. Even if I can't recur that attack directly, I can still bring the counters to bear with Quandary after the Cancel, or move them around with any of the Styles that manipulate the Recursors on discards.
 
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Dylan Thurston
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tankbard wrote:
Regarding your Cancel response, it's not just whether an attack gets a Recursor. It's also about whether attacks lose Recursors. For example if I recur an attack with lots of Recursors that ends up getting cancelled, but it doesn't lose those Recursors. Even if I can't recur that attack directly, I can still bring the counters to bear with Quandary after the Cancel, or move them around with any of the Styles that manipulate the Recursors on discards.
Are you suggesting that if you use a Decision Card to bring back an attack with lots of Recursor Counters, and the opponent reveals a Cancel, then the attack would go into your Discard 1 (before new attacks are placed) with all of its Counters still on it?
 
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Yes, because it is not clear to me that that is "failing to hit" with the attack in any conventional sense, since Special Actions explicitly kick in before any other Reveal-speed effects.

This is also why the original post included the leading question with Stun, because if you are stunned as the reactive player, you never get to the flowchart point where you check range to see if your attack hits, so the answer to that question might be "mu" instead of "yes" or "no". But it's pretty clear that the attack fails to hit -- the question is why this is true. If it's some logic involving bringing that attack pair to bear as your final attack pair for the beat (or some more concise phrasing thereof), then Cancel/Clash/Pulse should not affect Recursor Counters since they all prevent the attack pair in question from ever "materializing" in the first place.
 
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Quick update for those who are still watching this thread: After some discussion with other obsessed people, I have decided that an appropriate resolution to this rule is to treat Welsie's UA as though it has the following text at the appropriate point:

Quote:
Recycle: When recycling an attack pair, if that attack pair did not hit this beat, remove all Recursor Counters from it.


This makes it clear that Cancel and Clash should not do anything, but Special Action Pulse should.
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