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Sentinels of the Multiverse» Forums » Rules

Subject: 2 redirect all damage cards in play rss

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Chong Li
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Some heroes have cards that redirect all damage done to hero targets to that hero. What happens if there are two different heroes with cards like that?

To preempt the question, I ask because sometimes players are forced to play cards.
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Adam
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You can choose whatever order you want them to apply. So if one hero had a card that said "Redirect all damage from one source to this hero. Reduce the damage by 2" and another said simply "redirect all damage to this hero", then you could apply the first one, reduce the damage by 2 and then apply the second one.

I hope that makes sense.
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Hero choice.

If both redirects are forced (and that's a very rare circumstance) both happen but the heroes get to chose which order they happen in, so ultimately only one hero will take the redirected damage.

Most redirects are optional, I can only think of three forced ones off the top of my head (Divine Sacrifice, Threatening Stomp and Wrong Time and Place).
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Brian Blankstein
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Enduring Intercession, Smoke Bombs, and Thorathian Monolith are all forced.
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Also, if more than one persistent redirect effect would cause an infinite loop, the players choose when to break the loop. Effectively, they select a valid target on which to stop the redirects.
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Jason Kratz
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Also Alchemical Redirection in the Scholar's deck redirects all damage to hero targets to him.
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Naomi Nabbit
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Mantheron wrote:
You can choose whatever order you want them to apply. So if one hero had a card that said "Redirect all damage from one source to this hero. Reduce the damage by 2" and another said simply "redirect all damage to this hero", then you could apply the first one, reduce the damage by 2 and then apply the second one.

I hope that makes sense.

I didn't think this was right... I thought that when you redirect, you calculate the damage from scratch using the source and the new target's modifiers. So, if you applied the redirect that comes with damage reduction first, when the second redirect fires, the damage reduction is removed.

Example:

Wraith has Smoke Bombs out and 10 HP.
The Scholar has Alchemical Redirection and Flesh to Iron out and 5 HP.

Baron Blade has a +1 to damage dealt. He attacks The Scholar with an effect that deals 2 printed melee damage.

The attack for 2 is increased by Baron Blade's +1 to 3. The Scholar has -2 damage taken, so he would take 1 damage. However, Smoke Bombs and Alchemical Redirection both try to trigger. Heroes choose to use Smoke Bombs first. Damage is redirected to Wraith and recalculated.

The attack for 2 is increased by Baron Blade's +1 to 3. Smoke Bombs reduces the redirected damage by 1, putting it at 2. Wraith will now take 2 damage. But, Alchemical Redirection triggers, redirecting the damage back to The Scholar.

The attack for 2 is increased by Baron Blade's +1 to 3. The Scholar has -2 damage taken, so he would take 1 damage.


If the players had allowed Alchemical Redirection to trigger first, Wraith would have ended up taking 2 damage.

Since you recalculate from scratch each time, bonuses/penalties to attacks don't keep re-applyling, and bonuses/penalties for defense on one target are not carried over when the damage is redirected away from them.

Even if you use the interpretation where redirects can happen an infinite number of times in an infinite loop, but the players can choose when to break that loop - the same results occur. Nothing from one pass through the loop persists, so it's the same as each effect only happening once.
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Adam
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nyren wrote:
Mantheron wrote:
You can choose whatever order you want them to apply. So if one hero had a card that said "Redirect all damage from one source to this hero. Reduce the damage by 2" and another said simply "redirect all damage to this hero", then you could apply the first one, reduce the damage by 2 and then apply the second one.

I hope that makes sense.

I didn't think this was right... I thought that when you redirect, you calculate the damage from scratch using the source and the new target's modifiers. So, if you applied the redirect that comes with damage reduction first, when the second redirect fires, the damage reduction is removed.

Example:

Wraith has Smoke Bombs out and 10 HP.
The Scholar has Alchemical Redirection and Flesh to Iron out and 5 HP.

Baron Blade has a +1 to damage dealt. He attacks The Scholar with an effect that deals 2 printed melee damage.

The attack for 2 is increased by Baron Blade's +1 to 3. The Scholar has -2 damage taken, so he would take 1 damage. However, Smoke Bombs and Alchemical Redirection both try to trigger. Heroes choose to use Smoke Bombs first. Damage is redirected to Wraith and recalculated.

The attack for 2 is increased by Baron Blade's +1 to 3. Smoke Bombs reduces the redirected damage by 1, putting it at 2. Wraith will now take 2 damage. But, Alchemical Redirection triggers, redirecting the damage back to The Scholar.

The attack for 2 is increased by Baron Blade's +1 to 3. The Scholar has -2 damage taken, so he would take 1 damage.


If the players had allowed Alchemical Redirection to trigger first, Wraith would have ended up taking 2 damage.

Since you recalculate from scratch each time, bonuses/penalties to attacks don't keep re-applyling, and bonuses/penalties for defense on one target are not carried over when the damage is redirected away from them.

Even if you use the interpretation where redirects can happen an infinite number of times in an infinite loop, but the players can choose when to break that loop - the same results occur. Nothing from one pass through the loop persists, so it's the same as each effect only happening once.


Let me use your scenario to demonstrate how I would calculate things:
· Baron Blade's attack on The Scholar for 2 is increased by +1 to 3.
· Alchemical Redirection and Smoke Bombs trigger.

---Heroes choose Smoke Bombs first---
· Smoke Bombs trigger, redirecting 3 damage to Wraith and reducing the damage by 1.
· Alchemical Redirection triggers redirecting the 2 remaining damage to The Scholar.
· Flesh to Iron triggers, reducing the damage taken by 2.
· The Scholar takes 3-1-2=0 damage.

---Heroes choose Alchemical Redirection first---
· Alchemical Redirection triggers redirecting 3 damage to The Scholar.
· Smoke Bombs trigger, redirecting the damage to Wraith and reducing the damage by 1.
· The Wraith takes 3-1=2 damage.

I'm thinking of the difference between the reduction in Flesh to Iron and Smoke Bombs as when the damage is reduced. The Smoke Bombs reduce the damage while it's being redirected, while Flesh to Iron applies when the Scholar is hit. If you apply Alchemical Redirection first, the Scholar never actually gets hit with the damage, so it doesn't apply. With the Smoke Bombs, the damage is going through the smoke regardless of if it hits Wraith.

I don't have the cards in front of me, so I assume that Smoke Bombs doesn't say "reduce the damage dealt to Wraith by 1" but rather reads more like "Reduce this damage by 1".

Typed all this up then went to google. Here's an official ruling:
Christopher at PAX wrote:
2. You can redirect infinitely if you want, but it doesn't do anything. Once it is redirected, the target is taking the original amount of damage again. So Smoke Bombs can tag it once (since it has redirected the damage) and say, stealth bot can redirect it to himself and net a total of 2 damage reduction, but looping it doesn't get you anywhere. Having Legacy bring it back to himself only benefits from the smoke bombs, not Stealth Bots reduction. He says you're welcome to if you want to, though.

Link
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Geoff B.
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If two redirections create an infinite loop you choose which one to use.

If one is optional you redirect until you decide to stop using the optional one and the forced redirection wins.

So if Legacy with Lead from the Front is the lowest hero target and Stealth Bot is in play Legacy cannot take damage from villain targets.
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Brian Blankstein
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Phantaskippy wrote:
If two redirections create an infinite loop you choose which one to use.

If one is optional you redirect until you decide to stop using the optional one and the forced redirection wins.

So if Legacy with Lead from the Front is the lowest hero target and Stealth Bot is in play Legacy cannot take damage from villain targets.


Why not? Stealth Bot's redirection is optional. Either one of them can take the damage.
 
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Naomi Nabbit
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Mantheron wrote:
Typed all this up then went to google. Here's an official ruling:
Christopher at PAX wrote:
2. You can redirect infinitely if you want, but it doesn't do anything. Once it is redirected, the target is taking the original amount of damage again. So Smoke Bombs can tag it once (since it has redirected the damage) and say, stealth bot can redirect it to himself and net a total of 2 damage reduction, but looping it doesn't get you anywhere. Having Legacy bring it back to himself only benefits from the smoke bombs, not Stealth Bots reduction. He says you're welcome to if you want to, though.

Link


Okay, I don't understand this quote by Chris. He seems to contradict himself. He says "Once it is redirected, the target is taking the original amount of damage again." But then says the reduction from Smoke Bombs carries over after Stealth Bot re-redirects it. That's not the "original amount of damage."

Can someone please clarify?


(Also, people in the thread you linked pointed out that ambushing Chris while he's running a booth at a con and incredibly busy may not get you the most correct or thought out answers, and should probably not be considered a valid ruling. Also, don't do that.)


From another thread: https://greaterthangames.com/comment/94238#comment-94238
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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He probably means that you recalculate the damage based on relevant modifiers. Start with the original amount, then apply valid modifiers.

Thus, 4 melee damage being dealt to Legacy with Fortitude (-1 damage taken) but redirected via Smoke Bombs (-1 damage taken to Bunker, then redirected again to Stealth Bot (who has more current HP than Legacy, because of some previous Heroic Interceptions).

4 melee damage dealt to Legacy, reduced to 3 (Fortitude), but then redirected...

4 melee damage dealt to Bunker, reduced to 3 (Smoke Bombs), but then redirected...

4 melee damage dealt to Stealth Bot, reduced to 2 (Smoke Bombs & Stealth Bot).

By starting with the original value every time, you don't accidentally apply Legacy's Fortitude. You also only apply the nemesis bonus, if the thing actually being hit is the nemesis. I'm sure he mentions to carry over the Smoke Bombs' reduction because as long as the Smoke Bombs were involved at any point, there will be a -1 modifier applied to the ultimate damage dealt.

 
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Naomi Nabbit
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FlatOnHisFace wrote:
He probably means that you recalculate the damage based on relevant modifiers. Start with the original amount, then apply valid modifiers.

Thus, 4 melee damage being dealt to Legacy with Fortitude (-1 damage taken) but redirected via Smoke Bombs (-1 damage taken to Bunker, then redirected again to Stealth Bot (who has more current HP than Legacy, because of some previous Heroic Interceptions).

4 melee damage dealt to Legacy, reduced to 3 (Fortitude), but then redirected...

4 melee damage dealt to Bunker, reduced to 3 (Smoke Bombs), but then redirected...

4 melee damage dealt to Stealth Bot, reduced to 2 (Smoke Bombs & Stealth Bot).

By starting with the original value every time, you don't accidentally apply Legacy's Fortitude. You also only apply the nemesis bonus, if the thing actually being hit is the nemesis. I'm sure he mentions to carry over the Smoke Bombs' reduction because as long as the Smoke Bombs were involved at any point, there will be a -1 modifier applied to the ultimate damage dealt.


If you don't continue to count Fortitude after it is redirected, why do you continue to count Smoke Bombs? That's what I don't get. Also, if Smoke Bombs's bonus persists through future redirection, why does it not stack with itself if you activate Smoke Bombs multiple times for the same damage due to multiple redirection?

I still say that the most consistent and straightforward solution is (a) resolve each redirection effect only once, and (b) ignore all bonuses/penalties when a redirection occurs and recalculate the damage from scratch. If Smoke Bombs did the current redirect, add in an extra reduction of 1, otherwise, don't.
 
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Dylan Thurston
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nyren wrote:
If you don't continue to count Fortitude after it is redirected, why do you continue to count Smoke Bombs? That's what I don't get. Also, if Smoke Bombs's bonus persists through future redirection, why does it not stack with itself if you activate Smoke Bombs multiple times for the same damage due to multiple redirection?
These are both because of the specific wording of the Smoke Bombs card:
Smoke Bombs wrote:
Whenever a Villain card would deal damage to the hero target with the lowest HP, redirect that damage to the hero target with the highest HP.
Reduce damage redirected this way by 1.
The last clause there is saying that any damage that was ever redirected by Smoke Bombs is reduced by 1, whether it was redirected just once or multiple times.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Fortitude doesn't count because it only cares if Legacy is hit.

Smoke Bombs doesn't care who is hit. It only cares if a villain card tried to hit low and triggered the bombs.

And to add to what Dylan just said, I think the specific reason why Smoke Bombs only applies the reduction once is because the trigger is "Was this instance of damage redirected by Smoke Bombs?" If TRUE, then reduce by 1. If FALSE, then nothing special.

Should Smoke Bombs have been written as "Whenever a villain card would deal damage to the hero target with the lowest HP, reduce that damage by 1 and redirect it to the hero target with the highest HP," then the trigger is "Was the lowest hero target attempted to be hit by a villain card?" If TRUE, then reduce. If FALSE, then nothing special.

According to that phrasing, the reduction would occur every time the Smoke Bombs saw a villain card try to hit low.

Happily, this kind of thing is rare in the game. Usually, it is a matter of who is attacking and whom is being attacked. Pretty easy. Smoke Bombs is a bit of an exception and just easier to memorize that it is an exception.
 
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Greg Von Chicken Pants
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Conceptually it would work better if they changed the keyword to "Target Re-selection" instead of damage "Redirection".

Because that's what the game does. Legacy stands in front of Haka and takes the hit. He doesn't see damage 'passed through' Haka and then on to him.

Fun tidbit I learned today from the App. If you direct damage from the Chairman to the Operative (or vice versa) they gain the nemesis bonus. Since they have the symbol on their card.

Kinda guessed they had a bit of a tough love thing going on.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Neat! A bug! I recall reading that nemesis bonuses only apply when dealing damage to a target in another deck. This was in regards to Anubis and the Ennead, but also applies to the Rat Beasts of the Final Wasteland. The Chairman and Operative should not be hurting each other more.
 
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Andrew Arenson
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FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Neat! A bug! I recall reading that nemesis bonuses only apply when dealing damage to a target in another deck. This was in regards to Anubis and the Ennead, but also applies to the Rat Beasts of the Final Wasteland. The Chairman and Operative should not be hurting each other more.


Hmmm ... that's not what I recall. What I recall is that nemesis bonuses only apply when dealing damage to a different target, so The Chairman and The Operative get the bonus, as do the Ennead hitting each other, or The Sentinels hitting each other.
 
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Brian Blankstein
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arenson9 wrote:
FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Neat! A bug! I recall reading that nemesis bonuses only apply when dealing damage to a target in another deck. This was in regards to Anubis and the Ennead, but also applies to the Rat Beasts of the Final Wasteland. The Chairman and Operative should not be hurting each other more.


Hmmm ... that's not what I recall. What I recall is that nemesis bonuses only apply when dealing damage to a different target, so The Chairman and The Operative get the bonus, as do the Ennead hitting each other, or The Sentinels hitting each other.


Agreed. I always interpreted it as it hurting more when someone you trust attacks you (even accidentally).
 
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grysqrl wrote:
arenson9 wrote:
FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Neat! A bug! I recall reading that nemesis bonuses only apply when dealing damage to a target in another deck. This was in regards to Anubis and the Ennead, but also applies to the Rat Beasts of the Final Wasteland. The Chairman and Operative should not be hurting each other more.


Hmmm ... that's not what I recall. What I recall is that nemesis bonuses only apply when dealing damage to a different target, so The Chairman and The Operative get the bonus, as do the Ennead hitting each other, or The Sentinels hitting each other.


Agreed. I always interpreted it as it hurting more when someone you trust attacks you (even accidentally).

Just to concur with others, it's another target, not another deck.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Haha. I stand corrected. I found the part where the designer says "when a target with a Nemesis icon hits another target with a Nemesis icon, that damage is increased by 1." I'm sure he meant the same icon, but I find myself getting into trouble when I read intent into these things.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/860023/if-one-member-enn...
 
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