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Subject: Identical Captains rss

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Richard Shay
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Just got it and it is lovely so far. First thing I opened was the captains. There are 26. A few are duplicated: Foundry Magnate, Lumber Tycoon, Quarry King and University Patron.
1. Is that correct?
2. If you have a pair, would they both score?
Is their a parts manifest?
 
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Michael Keller
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Hi, Richard. So glad you like it so far. Yes, there should be two each of those. Yes, you can score both. There is a list of parts in the rule book.
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Mike Geller
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The illustrated component list in the rulebook is good, but adding exact component counts is better.
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Richard Shay
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Yes, I was asking for component counts.
Thanks for the rules clarification. The rule is correct as written, just a little surprising given the vast array of captain capabilities.
The rest of the rules seem clear. The interaction and market look tricky, but that is the point, isn't it?
 
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Seth Jaffee
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rmshay wrote:
just a little surprising given the vast array of captain capabilities.

They are duplicated so there's a chance for competition. If you're the only one going for largest Quarry, then it's very easy to get largest Quarry.
 
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Richard Shay
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Makes perfect sense. Looking forward to getting it on with my group.
 
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Mc Jarvis
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sedjtroll wrote:
rmshay wrote:
just a little surprising given the vast array of captain capabilities.

They are duplicated so there's a chance for competition. If you're the only one going for largest Quarry, then it's very easy to get largest Quarry.


Right, but if you get both "largest quarries" it also turns into extremely easy points. In my game last night I got two copies of the largest university card, and by making a large university I was able to easily score 28 points, which ended up being about a quarter of my overall score.

edit-> Also, the logic of "they are duplicated for competition" makes little sense to me, since the 2nd generation goods only have one card apiece. (oil, machinery, etc)
 
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Jason Reid
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McJarvis wrote:
sedjtroll wrote:
rmshay wrote:
just a little surprising given the vast array of captain capabilities.

They are duplicated so there's a chance for competition. If you're the only one going for largest Quarry, then it's very easy to get largest Quarry.


Right, but if you get both "largest quarries" it also turns into extremely easy points. In my game last night I got two copies of the largest university card, and by making a large university I was able to easily score 28 points, which ended up being about a quarter of my overall score.


Yeah, and if they were duplicated for competition, then it makes less sense (to me) that you can score them twice.
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Seth Jaffee
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McJarvis wrote:
sedjtroll wrote:
rmshay wrote:
just a little surprising given the vast array of captain capabilities.

They are duplicated so there's a chance for competition. If you're the only one going for largest Quarry, then it's very easy to get largest Quarry.


Right, but if you get both "largest quarries" it also turns into extremely easy points. In my game last night I got two copies of the largest university card, and by making a large university I was able to easily score 28 points, which ended up being about a quarter of my overall score.

It's not bad for the cards to make up a quarter of your score. Yes, it can be double rewarded, but that's better than getting a card you cannot use.

Quote:
edit-> Also, the logic of "they are duplicated for competition" makes little sense to me, since the 2nd generation goods only have one card apiece. (oil, machinery, etc)

The 2nd generation goods are harder to get into.

jasonwocky wrote:
Yeah, and if they were duplicated for competition, then it makes less sense (to me) that you can score them twice.

I prefer that to drawing a card you can't use at all. Yes, it sometimes lets someone double score a thing, but it's not like the card was free.
 
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Jesper Rugård Jensen
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You also have to remember that you have to discard a card at every end of age. So in order to keep 2 out of the 4 first cards, you need to spend a turn drawing an extra captian card. Which can be a good move if the age drags on a bit, but nothing you can be sure of.
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Mc Jarvis
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yazpah wrote:
You also have to remember that you have to discard a card at every end of age. So in order to keep 2 out of the 4 first cards, you need to spend a turn drawing an extra captian card. Which can be a good move if the age drags on a bit, but nothing you can be sure of.


That's hardly a meaningful cost, though. Spending one action to draw a captain card so you don't have to discard a duplicate card you've already earned the points for is hardly a cost at all.
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Erik McCarthy
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Agree on it being a bad idea to allow scoring of identical captains. Allows for twice the points for half the work all based on a luck of the draw event, which goes against almost every other aspect of the game's design.

Won't be allowing it in game's i play whenever possible.


 
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Jason Reid
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sedjtroll wrote:
jasonwocky wrote:
Yeah, and if they were duplicated for competition, then it makes less sense (to me) that you can score them twice.

I prefer that to drawing a card you can't use at all.


That doesn't bother me as you need to discard a card each age anyway. There's always a chance that the card you draw ends up being your best candidate for that discard.
 
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Jeff Fike
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Any time you have end game secret scoring cards, you run the risks of things like this happening.

To say it is unfair or inequitable to have two identical cards score is equivalent to playing Ticket to Ride and feeling jipped that every ticket a player draws utilizes his New York to Duluth train and he was able to score multiple times while other players had to work twice as hard to get theirs.

The only way to truly make it equitable is to get rid of the cards completely and make it more euro-style with fixed objectives for everybody. Then every game will look and feel exactly the same as the previous. In other words, it will grow stale....keep the cards in and ENJOY!

Even if I don't get two of the same card, I can get a quarry card and I can get an expansionist card. I'm scoring double from that for as long as I produce only one industry and expand the crap out of it. It is what it is.

You can always win by building real estate and manipulating the market.
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Mc Jarvis
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schmoo34 wrote:
Any time you have end game secret scoring cards, you run the risks of things like this happening.


That's not true-- in this case duplicate cards means that 100% of the time that you score for the first one, you score for the second one. There are very few other sets of cards in Captains of Industry which can be attained at the same time like this. (the 4 Gold/Silver/Bronze RE and 4 different RE markets come to mind, with the 4 GoldRe/4Diff being easiest.)
 
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Bret Guy
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I can see where this would score points, but does it create a runaway winner? I haven't had this double-captain-card-combo come up yet, so I don't know how I'd counter it. I'll have to play a lot more to find out.

It seems like if someone is going double-down on a card, that's going to put a lot of goods into the market that others can use to further their own goals, even if that's market share for the double-down player. Or maybe the other players could limit production on a resource that the double-down player needs to expand.

Like I said, have to play more - darn!

I'll watch for it going forward. The only way it would be considered a problem at my table is if it creates a giant point-pile that can't be conquered.

 
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Mc Jarvis
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thatbretguy wrote:
I can see where this would score points, but does create a runaway winner? I haven't had this double-captain-card-combo come up yet, so I don't know how I'd counter it. I'll have to play a lot more to find out.

It seems like if someone is going double-down on a card, that's going to put a lot of goods into the market that others can use to further their own goals, even if that's market share for the double-down player. Or maybe the other players could limit production on a resource that the double-down player needs to expand.

Like I said, have to play more - darn!

I'll watch for it going forward. The only way it would be considered a problem at my table is if it creates a giant point-pile that can't be conquered.



I don't think it's an auto-win, but it's certainly far far more efficient than anything else available to players in the game. Put it another way: if I could choose to draw a duplicate of a building card I was currently scoring max points on, I would almost always choose to do so.
 
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Jason Reid
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thatbretguy wrote:
It seems like if someone is going double-down on a card


They don't need to "double-down" on the card. They're simply getting a double-reward for something they were likely doing anyway. And to make it even better, now there won't be any "competition" for that goal (which was apparently the duplicate card's primary intent). So they can put even LESS effort into it.

"Great, I thought I was going to get another goal card, but instead I got a free 14 points. Maybe next turn, I'll go for ANOTHER goal card like I originally intended."
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Seth Jaffee
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McJarvis wrote:
thatbretguy wrote:
I can see where this would score points, but does create a runaway winner? I haven't had this double-captain-card-combo come up yet, so I don't know how I'd counter it. I'll have to play a lot more to find out.

It seems like if someone is going double-down on a card, that's going to put a lot of goods into the market that others can use to further their own goals, even if that's market share for the double-down player. Or maybe the other players could limit production on a resource that the double-down player needs to expand.

Like I said, have to play more - darn!

I'll watch for it going forward. The only way it would be considered a problem at my table is if it creates a giant point-pile that can't be conquered.


I don't think it's an auto-win, but it's certainly far far more efficient than anything else available to players in the game. Put it another way: if I could choose to draw a duplicate of a building card I was currently scoring max points on, I would almost always choose to do so.



jasonwocky wrote:
They don't need to "double-down" on the card. They're simply getting a double-reward for something they were likely doing anyway. And to make it even better, now there won't be any "competition" for that goal (which was apparently the duplicate card's primary intent). So they can put even LESS effort into it.

"Great, I thought I was going to get another goal card, but instead I got a free 14 points. Maybe next turn, I'll go for ANOTHER goal card like I originally intended."


On the other hand, if a player has 2 of the same reward card, and another player sees that they're increasing their Quarry (or whatever), they could compete and shut down the Quarry King twice as hard.

Maybe they won't but it's still a multiple eggs in 1 basket situation.

And this only happens if someone happens to draw both copies of a single Captain card.

Also, that player may choose to focus more on that one Facility, thereby reducing competition for other players.

There's more to it than you're suggesting. These did get tested
 
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Mc Jarvis
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sedjtroll wrote:
McJarvis wrote:
thatbretguy wrote:
I can see where this would score points, but does create a runaway winner? I haven't had this double-captain-card-combo come up yet, so I don't know how I'd counter it. I'll have to play a lot more to find out.

It seems like if someone is going double-down on a card, that's going to put a lot of goods into the market that others can use to further their own goals, even if that's market share for the double-down player. Or maybe the other players could limit production on a resource that the double-down player needs to expand.

Like I said, have to play more - darn!

I'll watch for it going forward. The only way it would be considered a problem at my table is if it creates a giant point-pile that can't be conquered.


I don't think it's an auto-win, but it's certainly far far more efficient than anything else available to players in the game. Put it another way: if I could choose to draw a duplicate of a building card I was currently scoring max points on, I would almost always choose to do so.



jasonwocky wrote:
They don't need to "double-down" on the card. They're simply getting a double-reward for something they were likely doing anyway. And to make it even better, now there won't be any "competition" for that goal (which was apparently the duplicate card's primary intent). So they can put even LESS effort into it.

"Great, I thought I was going to get another goal card, but instead I got a free 14 points. Maybe next turn, I'll go for ANOTHER goal card like I originally intended."


On the other hand, if a player has 2 of the same reward card, and another player sees that they're increasing their Quarry (or whatever), they could compete and shut down the Quarry King twice as hard.


So you are depending on player B thinking "Man, he has a size 6 quarry. I should build my quarry up to 6 and get almost no benefit for it so that player doesn't get an advantage, even though doing that will probably cost me the game."? Player B doesn't even know if Player A is representing a double captain bonus or a single.

The game seems pretty clearly to be an efficiency game. Competing with someone for largest quarry when you are not even sure whether they have the largest quarry card is asking a lot out of the players--- it might even be asking for suboptimal kingmaking play.
 
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Seth Jaffee
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McJarvis wrote:
sedjtroll wrote:
McJarvis wrote:
thatbretguy wrote:
I can see where this would score points, but does create a runaway winner? I haven't had this double-captain-card-combo come up yet, so I don't know how I'd counter it. I'll have to play a lot more to find out.

It seems like if someone is going double-down on a card, that's going to put a lot of goods into the market that others can use to further their own goals, even if that's market share for the double-down player. Or maybe the other players could limit production on a resource that the double-down player needs to expand.

Like I said, have to play more - darn!

I'll watch for it going forward. The only way it would be considered a problem at my table is if it creates a giant point-pile that can't be conquered.


I don't think it's an auto-win, but it's certainly far far more efficient than anything else available to players in the game. Put it another way: if I could choose to draw a duplicate of a building card I was currently scoring max points on, I would almost always choose to do so.



jasonwocky wrote:
They don't need to "double-down" on the card. They're simply getting a double-reward for something they were likely doing anyway. And to make it even better, now there won't be any "competition" for that goal (which was apparently the duplicate card's primary intent). So they can put even LESS effort into it.

"Great, I thought I was going to get another goal card, but instead I got a free 14 points. Maybe next turn, I'll go for ANOTHER goal card like I originally intended."


On the other hand, if a player has 2 of the same reward card, and another player sees that they're increasing their Quarry (or whatever), they could compete and shut down the Quarry King twice as hard.


So you are depending on player B thinking "Man, he has a size 6 quarry. I should build my quarry up to 6 and get almost no benefit for it so that player doesn't get an advantage, even though doing that will probably cost me the game."? Player B doesn't even know if Player A is representing a double captain bonus or a single.


That's not at all what I said.

It's entirely possible that player B is already in Quarries, and it doesn't get them "no benefit" and won't cost them the game... but that doesn't even matter. It's just a single example.

Here's another... you start with the Quarry King card, but in the early game someone else built and expanded their Quarry, so you're behind in the quarry race. Then you draw a duplicate Quarry King card. Is that free points? Or does it just give you a reason to focus on overtaking Quarry majority?

Again, just a single example. The point is that there's more to it than simply "this card means I get a free 14 points."

If you don't believe me, then you are welcome to spend extra actions drawing Captain cards looking for double ups, and see how often that works out for you (spoilers: sometimes it will, sometimes it won't).
 
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Mc Jarvis
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Quote:
Quote:
sedjtroll wrote:


On the other hand, if a player has 2 of the same reward card, and another player sees that they're increasing their Quarry (or whatever), they could compete and shut down the Quarry King twice as hard.


So you are depending on player B thinking "Man, he has a size 6 quarry. I should build my quarry up to 6 and get almost no benefit for it so that player doesn't get an advantage, even though doing that will probably cost me the game."? Player B doesn't even know if Player A is representing a double captain bonus or a single.


That's not at all what I said.


The example you gave in the post above was that one player sees someone is getting large in quarries, so they decide to compete with them on the chance that large-quarry player has the large-quarry captain card. (Bolded for emphasis) So it's exactly what you said.

Your other example:

Quote:
Here's another... you start with the Quarry King card, but in the early game someone else built and expanded their Quarry, so you're behind in the quarry race. Then you draw a duplicate Quarry King card. Is that free points? Or does it just give you a reason to focus on overtaking Quarry majority?


So let's say you are 1 size behind in the quarry race. (They have a size 3, you have a size 2?) You can expand your quarry twice to get (5+3+2+1) * 2 = 22 points. That seems pretty worth it to me. They have the option of meeting your expansion--- but that's on the premise that they know for sure which captain cards you have.

Plus, if people have such great incentive to compete with you in the first place, why have two quarry cards in the deck in the first place? You yourself claimed it was to incentivize competition. In the case where one person draws both cards, that incentive is no longer there.
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Seth Jaffee
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McJarvis wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
sedjtroll wrote:


On the other hand, if a player has 2 of the same reward card, and another player sees that they're increasing their Quarry (or whatever), they could compete and shut down the Quarry King twice as hard.


So you are depending on player B thinking "Man, he has a size 6 quarry. I should build my quarry up to 6 and get almost no benefit for it so that player doesn't get an advantage, even though doing that will probably cost me the game."? Player B doesn't even know if Player A is representing a double captain bonus or a single.


That's not at all what I said.


The example you gave in the post above was that one player sees someone is getting large in quarries, so they decide to compete with them on the chance that large-quarry player has the large-quarry captain card. (Bolded for emphasis) So it's exactly what you said.

You implied that someone would have to be starting from scratch or a large deficit to compete. There are lots of reasons for people to build and expand facilities that are unrelated to Captain cards, and a player may not need to put him or her self out much in order to decide to compete, even if they don't have a Captain card that explicitly rewards them for competing.

Quote:
Your other example:

Quote:
Here's another... you start with the Quarry King card, but in the early game someone else built and expanded their Quarry, so you're behind in the quarry race. Then you draw a duplicate Quarry King card. Is that free points? Or does it just give you a reason to focus on overtaking Quarry majority?


So let's say you are 1 size behind in the quarry race. (They have a size 3, you have a size 2?) You can expand your quarry twice to get (5+3+2+1) * 2 = 22 points. That seems pretty worth it to me. They have the option of meeting your expansion--- but that's on the premise that they know for sure which captain cards you have.

So if it seems worth it, then do that! Point is that just because the cards overlap their reward, it's not always automatically worth it based on the game state and other Captain cards you have.

Quote:
Plus, if people have such great incentive to compete with you in the first place, why have two quarry cards in the deck in the first place? You yourself claimed it was to incentivize competition. In the case where one person draws both cards, that incentive is no longer there.

I said they encourage competition... like the "most money" and "least stock" Tycoon cards in Railroad Tycoon.

I did not say it's the only thing that encourages competition.

I think it adds a net positive dynamic to the game. You're welcome to disagree.
 
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sedjtroll wrote:
There's more to it than you're suggesting. These did get tested


I believe that completely; I know you guys are always very thorough. But sometimes your preferences might zig in a place where mine would zag. No big deal. I think this is just one of those cases, and I haven't heard anything to contraindicate that.

I think in this case it's particularly easy for me to houserule differently due to the per-age discard (which is a little touch that I happen to find appealing regardless of all this). I don't mind the risk of drawing a useless card; as I said, that's pretty much always a possibility depending on whatever your position is at the time you draw a card. Plus you know that risk going in if you have one of those cards in your hand. Whereas as an opponent, you have no idea what's in your opponents' hands other than what you can surmise from their builds. So I'd rather put the risk on the person with the most knowledge.

Anyway, on the whole, I think this is a wonderfully well put-together game. It has a lot of nice little mechanisms (such as the way turn order works, and the bonus card discard, and I know I'm forgetting at least one more) that you don't see in a typical Euro, and I know you guys tested them. So it's a nice advancement of the art. I wouldn't be surprised to start seeing some of these little devices in other games
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jasonwocky wrote:
I don't mind the risk of drawing a useless card; as I said, that's pretty much always a possibility depending on whatever your position is at the time you draw a card. Plus you know that risk going in if you have one of those cards in your hand. Whereas as an opponent, you have no idea what's in your opponents' hands other than what you can surmise from their builds. So I'd rather put the risk on the person with the most knowledge.

Isn't there also always a risk that you'll draw a Captain card that rewards you for something you've already done (or were planning on doing anyway), even though you didn't know you were going to be rewarded for it?

And if so, isn't that the same as drawing a duplicate?

Quote:
Anyway, on the whole, I think this is a wonderfully well put-together game. It has a lot of nice little mechanisms (such as the way turn order works, and the bonus card discard, and I know I'm forgetting at least one more) that you don't see in a typical Euro, and I know you guys tested them. So it's a nice advancement of the art. I wouldn't be surprised to start seeing some of these little devices in other games

I'm glad you're enjoying the game! I think it's a solid title, and I'm happy it's finally coming out
 
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