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Subject: Can you reveal cards from your hand with no reason ? rss

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Geekmate75
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A lot of rules questions here so i ask for mine what you think.

My opponent play a Midseason Replacement
Play only if the runner stole an agenda during his or her last turn
Trace6: If successful, give the runners tags equal to the amount by which your trace strength exceeded his or her link strength)


I point out to him that i didn't stole any agenda from him last turn.
He apologizes and play something else.
Now, he plays knowing that i know that if i run and stole an agenda from him, he will play his Midseason Replacement... starting to advance agenda without protection, knowing that if i run and stole it the consequence could be terrible for me.

I know that Netrunner is principaly a mind game and it's one of the quality I really appreciate but here things seems twisted in a vicious way.

What will be the consequence in a tournament if someone start to act like this ?
For example in poker, it's strictly forbidden to reveal cards in your hand.
 
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Ken Wong
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I don't think there's a specific ruling on this but I'm pretty sure it's commonly accepted that doing things for "no reason" such as revealing cards are in bad taste and can be agreed upon that it shouldn't happen.

Although, him revealing mid-seasons should not be an advantage for him. If you know he has mid-seasons, you know that he has it and you can play accordingly. If you didn't know he had it, what would have stopped you from running and getting tagged?
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Andrew Keddie
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The rules don't say the Corp can reveal cards in hand at any time, so they can't. Remember, rules tell you what you CAN do, not what you can't.

The situation you described could be seen as grounds for unsportsmanlike conduct, as it engineered a situation where you were coerced to alter your strategy as a result of information you shouldn't have had.
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Robbie M.
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
The rules don't say the Corp can reveal cards in hand at any time, so they can't. Remember, rules tell you what you CAN do, not what you can't.

The situation you described could be seen as grounds for unsportsmanlike conduct, as it engineered a situation where you were coerced to alter your strategy as a result of information you shouldn't have had.

So no accidentally dropping your Snares from your hand to discourage runs against your HQ?
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Captain Frisk
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Officially no, but I have no idea how to handle that in a tournament.
 
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Brodie
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If it's an honest mistake I'm not inclined to further punish the Corp player; they've provided their opponent with information that could very well lead to their undoing ("guess I better unload Kati now!"), and that's sufficient for me. If I thought it was deliberate for whatever reason, that's a different story.
 
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Michael Kefauver
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Hey, if he reveals cards to you, that's free information to work off of. He'd drop that Midseason if you knew about it or not. Knowing lets you see if you can beat his link or not with what you have in your hand, or at the very least be prepared for the tags.

I'd say how to deal with it depends on the situation. A casual game? Let it slide. A tourney...? Well, I personally would let one slide, especially if it was an obvious mistake (Which we all make. Could be the guy's first tourney, for all I know). The second time, I'd tell him to be more careful. Third time I'd call a judge. Eventually he'd get called on it enough to get ejected, if he's doing it on purpose.

I guess it also raises the question "What do I do if my opponent says he has Midseason in his hand?" Because I'm not sure if it's officially against the rules to say if you have something in your hand or not.
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Captain Frisk
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Nessmk2 wrote:
Third time I'd call a judge.


Sure - as a player I'd let it slide. I always err on the side of having fun, even in a tournament. (You advance an NAPD to 4 and try to score it but have bad pub? - take it back, I don't want to win that way)

The question is - as a judge what do you do when a player calls you over and says:

P1: "My opponent revealed a snare illegally - I demand you DQ him"
P2: "I didn't do it on purpose"
P1: "Yes he did - and its illegal"

My gut feeling is to tell P2 to quit being a butthole, but there's no guidelines either way.

Scenario:
P1: "Advance, Advance, Advance, Score NAPD"
P2: "Can't score - you have bad pub. Judge! DQ him for revealing"
Judge: "P2: Quit being a butthole. P1: you're stuck with 4 advancement tokens"
P2... Spends turn running and scoring NAPD
P1: Midseason Scorch Scorch
Judge: FFFFFFFFFFFFFF

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I think the solution in the Magic community has been to err on the side of having fun, but take meticulous notes so that people who cheat a tiny bit in every tournament get caught eventually.
 
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Geekmate75
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Nessmk2 wrote:
Hey, if he reveals cards to you, that's free information to work off of. He'd drop that Midseason if you knew about it or not. Knowing lets you see if you can beat his link or not with what you have in your hand, or at the very least be prepared for the tags.

I'd say how to deal with it depends on the situation. A casual game? Let it slide. A tourney...? Well, I personally would let one slide, especially if it was an obvious mistake (Which we all make. Could be the guy's first tourney, for all I know). The second time, I'd tell him to be more careful. Third time I'd call a judge. Eventually he'd get called on it enough to get ejected, if he's doing it on purpose.

I guess it also raises the question "What do I do if my opponent says he has Midseason in his hand?" Because I'm not sure if it's officially against the rules to say if you have something in your hand or not.


You right, it was information... The kind i don't like because if i run and suffers the midseason, my opponent could double scorched me for the win... and if i don't run, he could just advance his agenda on the road to victory. Whatever i do, i was losing... But it's not really about victory or defeat, it was an IRL game, and it just felt like an 'humiliating' experience (the word is strong but i couldn't find another)
 
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Geekmate75
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and after all i'm not even sure he have 2 scorched earth in hand, but when he play it illegaly, he uses this to bluff me... making me doubt about running.
 
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Michael Kefauver
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Captain_Frisk wrote:
Nessmk2 wrote:
Third time I'd call a judge.


Sure - as a player I'd let it slide. I always err on the side of having fun, even in a tournament. (You advance an NAPD to 4 and try to score it but have bad pub? - take it back, I don't want to win that way)

The question is - as a judge what do you do when a player calls you over and says:

P1: "My opponent revealed a snare illegally - I demand you DQ him"
P2: "I didn't do it on purpose"
P1: "Yes he did - and its illegal"

My gut feeling is to tell P2 to quit being a butthole, but there's no guidelines either way.

...



Snipped a bit, sorry. I think it's legit to call the judge and say "Hey, this is the third time he's revealed cards in his hand to me. Is that against the rules?"

Nice and polite and innocent. Judge tells P2 to stop being a butthole (as you hilariously put it, thanks for the giggle!) but the point has been raised. And then if he does it a fourth, fifth time, or does it to other players, the judge in question knows its a recurring problem and can talk to the player about it.

I don't want to see anyone DQed period, but at best it's extremely incompetent play (and if you manage to do it to multiple players over the course of one tourney, you're probably not ready to play in a tourney like that. I know I'm not) and at worst it's poor sportsmanship and 'taunting.'

You can only 'accidentally' reveal cards so many times and have it actually be an accident. "Oops, I miscounted my credits" once is an honest mistake too, but the 3rd time in a game, you need to start being more careful, or it starts looking more like you're hoping your opponent will miss that you're playing an illegal card.
 
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Brodie
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Zulyen wrote:
You right, it was information... The kind i don't like because if i run and suffers the midseason, my opponent could double scorched me for the win... and if i don't run, he could just advance his agenda on the road to victory. Whatever i do, i was losing... But it's not really about victory or defeat, it was an IRL game, and it just felt like an 'humiliating' experience (the word is strong but i couldn't find another)


I get what you're saying, but the way I see it is, those options didn't change either way. If you ran it not knowing it was an agenda, he still could have Midseasoned you. If you didn't run it not knowing it was an agenda, he still could have scored it. The only thing that has changed is your full knowledge of what running on it could mean, and IMO you benefit most from this.
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Captain_Frisk wrote:
Officially no, but I have no idea how to handle that in a tournament.

I once accidentally dropped my hand, revealing several cards. It was as runner, though, and nobody really cared.
 
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Ken Wong
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Azgard12 wrote:
Captain_Frisk wrote:
Officially no, but I have no idea how to handle that in a tournament.

I once accidentally dropped my hand, revealing several cards. It was as runner, though, and nobody really cared.


Yeah, I think no one cared because revealing your cards as a runner will never in any way benefit yourself (that I can imagine).
 
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Ony Moose
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As the corp you don't really want the runner to know you have MidSeasons+Scorched*2 in your hand. You'd rather them not know. If you let them know you have midseasons on purpose, you are only hurting yourself as the corp, as the runner can now take preventative measures and/or assume you were just bluffing the scorched earths you don't have, and run anyway. I mean, you exposed it to try to bluff out the runner.
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Harris Enniss
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I don't see how players revealing cards from hand could possibly be a problem. If a player wants to give their opponent free information, more power to them.

Quote:
The rules don't say the Corp can reveal cards in hand at any time, so they can't. Remember, rules tell you what you CAN do, not what you can't.


The rules don't say you can shuffle your hand, either. Is that prohibited?
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John Fanjoy
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I don't see why revealing information to your opponent could be a problem. If you try to make an illegal play (e.g. playing SEA Source when there wasn't a successful run) that's definitely a problem and a judge should be called.

I assume the reason revealing cards is a problem in poker is because that's a multiplayer game, so one could potentially collude with a third player.
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Andrew Keddie
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CitizenFry wrote:
I don't see why revealing information to your opponent could be a problem. If you try to make an illegal play (e.g. playing SEA Source when there wasn't a successful run) that's definitely a problem and a judge should be called.

I assume the reason revealing cards is a problem in poker is because that's a multiplayer game, so one could potentially collude with a third player.


Simple example: Imagine you 'accidentally' drop a Snare! from your hand. Your opponent is now less likely to run you and steal the 4 Agendas you're holding.
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Ken Wong
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
CitizenFry wrote:
I don't see why revealing information to your opponent could be a problem. If you try to make an illegal play (e.g. playing SEA Source when there wasn't a successful run) that's definitely a problem and a judge should be called.

I assume the reason revealing cards is a problem in poker is because that's a multiplayer game, so one could potentially collude with a third player.


Simple example: Imagine you 'accidentally' drop a Snare! from your hand. Your opponent is now less likely to run you and steal the 4 Agendas you're holding.


Imagine if he ran anyway and ended up hitting the snare =p
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Yan
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Well... I guess this topic is a big part of why FFG is working on official floor rules and a judge program.
 
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John Fanjoy
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
CitizenFry wrote:
I don't see why revealing information to your opponent could be a problem. If you try to make an illegal play (e.g. playing SEA Source when there wasn't a successful run) that's definitely a problem and a judge should be called.

I assume the reason revealing cards is a problem in poker is because that's a multiplayer game, so one could potentially collude with a third player.


Simple example: Imagine you 'accidentally' drop a Snare! from your hand. Your opponent is now less likely to run you and steal the 4 Agendas you're holding.

I don't see a problem with that.
 
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Andrew Keddie
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CitizenFry wrote:
CommissarFeesh wrote:
CitizenFry wrote:
I don't see why revealing information to your opponent could be a problem. If you try to make an illegal play (e.g. playing SEA Source when there wasn't a successful run) that's definitely a problem and a judge should be called.

I assume the reason revealing cards is a problem in poker is because that's a multiplayer game, so one could potentially collude with a third player.


Simple example: Imagine you 'accidentally' drop a Snare! from your hand. Your opponent is now less likely to run you and steal the 4 Agendas you're holding.

I don't see a problem with that.


You don't have a problem with illegally revealing information to engineer a win? :/
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Zak Jarvis
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It's interesting though, what engineered it?

If the corp sat there in the runner's turn cheerfully singing: "Snare, snare, snare, snaretty-snare!" to themselves, giving the runner a cheeky wink when the runner shot them an exasperated look, would that be unfairly engineering the win?

It would be achieving the same purpose, reminding the runner that they may suffer if they hit a 'Snare!' and that the corp could well be holding one.

So the part of the situation that might engineer the change in runner behaviour would still be present, the reminder of the threat of a 'Snare!'.

Actually revealing that the you do have a 'Snare!' in hand still brings up the threat of 'Snare!', but in addition the corp simply gives up some of their bluff potential. I can't see how it's any more unfair than saying "Remember, I may have a 'Snare!'". The threat is the same, but you also help the runner by giving them some hidden information. Logically, at worst it should equally unfair, if reminding the runner of the possibility of 'Snare!' is unfair at all.
 
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Andrew Keddie
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popeye09 wrote:
It's interesting though, what engineered it?

If the corp sat there in the runner's turn cheerfully singing: "Snare, snare, snare, snaretty-snare!" to themselves, giving the runner a cheeky wink when the runner shot them an exasperated look, would that be unfairly engineering the win?

It would be achieving the same purpose, reminding the runner that they may suffer if they hit a 'Snare!' and that the corp could well be holding one.

So the part of the situation that might engineer the change in runner behaviour would still be present, the reminder of the threat of a 'Snare!'.

Actually revealing that the you do have a 'Snare!' in hand still brings up the threat of 'Snare!', but in addition the corp simply gives up some of their bluff potential. I can't see how it's any more unfair than saying "Remember, I may have a 'Snare!'". The threat is the same, but you also help the runner by giving them some hidden information. Logically, at worst it should equally unfair, if reminding the runner of the possibility of 'Snare!' is unfair at all.


Calculating risks. Let's take the example further and imagine I've already seen 2 Snare!s in archives, and you've not used any recursion cards. I have to know that you might have a Snare!, but I'll likely assume (rightly or wrongly) you don't unless your R&D is very small.

If you actually show it to me however, that changes things signiicantly, because now I KNOW you have a Snare!, which takes the (perceived) odds of hitting a Snare! from

(cards accessed on a HQ run)/(cards in HQ + Cards in R&D)

up to

(cards accessed on a HQ run)/(cards in HQ).

Basically it's forcing me to re-asses my risk assesment, which alters the way I play. Bluffing a Snare! isn't the same as revealing a Snare!. I don't see how you can realistically argue otherwise.
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