Vangelis Papajohn
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Hi everyone.

What is the correct order when Damiel recharges his alchemical items? For example:
1) Damiel plays a Healing Potion. He shuffles 1d4 cards from his discard pile into his deck and then recharges the Potion OR
2) Damiel plays a Healing Potion. He recharges the Potion first, and then shuffles 1d4 cards from his discard pile into his deck.

Which one is correct? The second process has the side-effect of essentially shuffling the Healing Potion into the deck, thus making it more probable to resurface.

A similar problem occurs when Damiel recharges a bomb and boosts it with an extra card, which he manages to recharge. Which card gets to be recharged first?

Thanks for any insight.


 
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Jeff Jones
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Since it's not specified in what order it has to happen, I think the rule is you choose. The potion of Healing says banish to shuffle d4 cards into your deck - order doesn't matter here. Damiel says when you would banish to recharge. So it doesn't seem that the order is spelled out, unlike say Cure.
 
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Since Cure explicitly tells you to set it aside before shuffling and THEN perform the "trigger action" (discarding/recharging), that makes me infer that the default case is to not set it aside. So I would say that Damiel always recharges before shuffling.
 
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Jeff Jones
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Tough to infer a default case for how things work in PACG. It's usually better to try a literal reading of each card and rule.
 
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Craig S.
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One of the meta rules of the game is "Finish one thing before you start another". So...do everything it says on the potion card, then recharge the potion.
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Jeff Jones
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Okay, but doesn't one of the things the potion says to do is banish it? So you do that, but since you're Damiel, you recharge it and finish doing whatever else is on the card. I guess it's not entirely clear to me in what order it has to happen (and as the OP pointed out, it does make a difference).
 
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Craig S.
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Can't remember exactly where it was clarified but, basically, banish/discard/bury is the last thing that is done when playing a card that requires these actions to play them. They are effectively in "limbo" while you carry out their instructions. It makes sense if you think about it, because you are not expected to remember the text on s card that you have just banished, buried, or discarded. The card has to be available for reference until you are finished following the instructions.
 
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Andrew Warner
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The limbo thing was in the Rise of the Runelords rulebook and specifically applied to playing a card while attempting a check that "might" be recharged because it had a recharge check.

RotR Rulebook p15 wrote:
If, while attempting another check, you play a boon that you may be able to recharge, resolve the current check before attempting to recharge the card. The boon is in play (and does not count as being in your hand, in your deck,in your discard pile, or elsewhere) during the intervening time. (This check applies only after you have played a card—when a card’s power directs you to recharge it as part of playing it, and does not specify a check, you don’t have to attempt a check to recharge it.)


That text appeared in the section explaining the recharge box on cards, which was removed from cards in Skull and Shackles. The text doesn't appear to have made it into another part of the Skull and Shackles rulebook. Regardless, it wouldn't apply here because Damiel isn't playing Potion of Healing during a check.

I'd personally say you recharge the portion, then roll the d4, then get your cards from your discard pile. Yes, it means Damiel is effectively shuffling the potion of healing, but given Tot Flask, and the other things likely to shuffle his deck, I don't personally see that being an issue.

Now, Drunken Master Sajan, I would say he had to shuffle, then perform his check to see if he can recharge it, precisely because of "finish one thing before you start another." But I don't think that applies to Damiel because he is really replacing the action when he plays it. I wouldn't say Valeros has to set his weapon aside before he gets to recharge it.

Just my opinion.
 
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Craig S.
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I dunno...I'm fairly retain they don't intend for you to do something with ANY card that would effectively hide its text and then expec for you to carry out its instructions from memory.
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Andrew Warner
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But isn't that the most obvious way to understand the cards? When I play a blessing, I put it in my discard pile and then slide the appropriate die/dice out onto the table. If I recharge an ally to add dice to a check, I put the ally on the bottom of my deck and add the dice to the pile in the middle of the table.

You have to do the thing with the card to get the benefit. It doesn't usually require you to remember much, you can set aside the appropriate die/dice as a reminder. For example...

Damiel wants to play Potion of Healing.
He sets a d4 in front of himself as a reminder that he chose himself and that he'll need to roll a d4.
He puts the Potion of Healing on the bottom of his deck.
He picks up the d4 and rolls it, getting a 2.
He shuffles his discard pile, takes 2 random cards, and shuffles them into his deck.

You aren't being asked to remember much for long. "This exploration has the swashbuckling trait on non-combat checks because of the ally I played." Or "this check has +2 from the weapon I just recharged." In a lot of cases the cards are just recharged, so you can simply peak at them again.
 
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Craig S.
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Not saying you're wrong, but I could swear this was covered, either here or in the Paizo forum. Can't readily remember, though, so you could be right.
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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The rule book tells you to recharge cards 'facedown' and prohibits looking at cards in your deck unless a power lets you do so. Some characters can get the power to shuffle cards into their decks when they recharge them.

The text of most blessings says 'Discard to ...' but at the end says 'After you play this card, if it matches the top card of the blessings discard pile, recharge this card instead of discarding it', which implies that it hasn't been discarded yet. Items with 'Bury' powers and recharge checks have similar wording.

If a card has a recharge check, you do that after executing the power on the card. If a card says to bury/discard/banish/shred unless your have the X trait, otherwise attempt an X check to recharge, it would be weird for the card to go away at different times depending on whether you have a trait.
 
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Vangelis Papajohn
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First of all, thanks for the quick replies. I would particularly like to thank you, Hawkmoon, for the numerous answers you've given regarding Pathfinder. You've been most helpful.

About the issue at hand: The very reason that I posted this question is exactly what Michael just said. While the wording on Damiel's card allows for recharging before shuffling, the way about playing cards in this game feels different. However, I can't seem to find a rule or a combination of rules to guide me through this, and hence the question.

Could it be that it's just a "Damiel" thing, which should be officialy clarified? After all, it's the first time (in my experience) that recharging without a check has so different consequences than recharging with a check. Still, as Michael said, shuffling a card from your hand into your deck isn't unprecedented.



 
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Andrew Warner
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Right. I recognize that the rules say you can't look at the cards in your deck. I'm just saying that if this situation came up:

Hypothetical Check wrote:
Valeros plays a weapon that he recharges. When he goes to add up the result, he can't remember if that weapon add +2 or +3.


I would totally say "Go ahead and look at the card on the bottom of your deck." It doesn't give you any information you shouldn't have.

So, with that in mind, the only things that make it impossible to glance back at the card to see exactly what it said is shuffling. In every other situation, you can glance at the cards without "cheating" in the sense of gaining information you shouldn't have or changing the order of cards, even though it might be "cheating" in the sense of prohibited by the strict reading of the rules.

All that to say, I don't think you are really required to remember lots of things. And most of the time there is "backup" option in case you forget. So I don't see the fact that you need to keep reading the card as support for not shuffling it.

So for me, I shuffle the potion. It isn't as good as Cure in terms of number of cards it gives you back (lacking the +1), but it better than Cure in that it is itself shuffled back in.

I've looked through the Paizo forums, I see the question being asked there, but I haven't found any definitive response on it.

Ultimately, like Vangelis suggest, I think Damiel is just different. The potions being changed from banish to a recharge check for Sajan seemed pretty game changing. It is even more so since for Damiel it is automatic.
 
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Alexandre Lima
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Take a look at this FAQ entry: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gu#v5748eaic9scz

Quote:
In the Powers section on Damiel's character card and both sides of his role card, change "When you would banish a card that has the Alchemical trait, recharge it instead" to "When you play a card that has the Alchemical trait and would banish it, you may recharge it instead".


To me it's clear enough that the recharging happens after the card effect resolves, just like other recharges (Cure spell for example) or "when you play" effects (reveal, discard, etc)—which is what we assumed for our plays before seeing this errata.

So for Potion of Healing option 1 would be correct, and for boosting bombs, the "booster" would be recharged first, then the bomb.

Hope that helps.
 
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Vangelis Papajohn
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Well, I'm not sure that this FAQ entry actually answers my question. It merely clarifies that Damiel may only recharge cards that he plays. He cannot e.g. recharge a potion that he fails to acquire, or when a bane's power forces him to banish it. I cannot discern from this specific answer if Damiel recharges an alchemical card before of after applying its effects.

 
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