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Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » General

Subject: RIF 3 ENDGAME video batrep rss

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Steve Smith
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Here are my three games from RIF 3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efddW_hrfHk&feature=youtu.be

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zack like a bausch
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Florida
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Congrats on your win.
 
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Steve Smith
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skullxer0 wrote:
Congrats on your win.


Thanks. It was completely unexpected as I was not prepared at all to joust on half the map, which is what this turned out to be.

I'm an idiot as I completely misread the scenario. I thought I could fly that 90 point B'Rel into the aperature (using the two In'chas to get there quickly) and spend all the Upgrades to get plus one attack so roll about twenty dice, destroy the aperature (getting 40 points for that), automatically escape to the Alpha Quadrant (getting 20 points for that), and thus win with 60 points. That sounded right to me. My opponent would only get 30 points for destroying my left behind Vulcan ship. That also sounded quite logical. I'm sure the Vulcans would understand.

However, apparent this is not how this ridiculous scenario is to be played. Apparently, there are four pages of FAQ on this one event on the official WK site. The player who risks going through Borg space and goes through the aperature and destroys it and escapes to the Alpha Quadrant will still automatically lose because the winner is the one who still has starships left in the playing area. So, a player can sit back, do nothing all game, have zero points, and yet be declared the winner even though his opponent completed the actual mission and has 60 points for doing so! Utter stupidity!

Everyone at my venue ignored Borg space and just jousted on half the map. I read online that other venues simply refused to play the scenario. Utter, ridiculous, stupidity. The scenario would have been fine if the winner was the one with the most points at the end and if certain rulings didn't actually make it literally impossible to survive going through the Borg aperature. Someone at WK (whoever came up with this scenario) really does need to be fired so that they can go find a job that they are actually good at.
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Evan
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You and everyone else on the Internet wrote:
I just learned how this scenario works, and didn't try for the bonus points, but based on my discussions with people who also haven't tried for the bonus points, I've confidently arrived at the conclusion that it's utterly stupid and someone deserves to be fired for it.
 
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Steve Smith
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kobold47 wrote:
You and everyone else on the Internet wrote:
I just learned how this scenario works, and didn't try for the bonus points, but based on my discussions with people who also haven't tried for the bonus points, I've confidently arrived at the conclusion that it's utterly stupid and someone deserves to be fired for it.


Kobold47, the really undeniably stupid thing is that if I had tried it and had succeeded it would have automatically cost me the game. In other words, I automatically lose for completing the mission even if I have 60 points, destroyed the aperature, and escaped to the Alpha Quadrant and even if my opponent did absolutely nothing and has 0 points.

Yes, everybody else finds that stupid. How do you defend it? Please enlighten everyone else on the planet.
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Sodoff Baldrick
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Nice bat rep Steve. I see you guys are not using the suggested format. Any particular reason? To each their own, my local group has like it so far.
 
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Steve Smith
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Mr S Baldrick wrote:
Nice bat rep Steve. I see you guys are not using the suggested format. Any particular reason? To each their own, my local group has like it so far.


We still may try it but dreadnoughts were fun to fly and to fight against. Also, it doesn't fix the problem with the Borg anyway. Instead of the Tactical Cube dreadnought dominating the double Sphere will again dominate instead, so what's the point?

We have a very good group of players in Winnipeg with three different FLGS running STAW so we just self-regulate. Not one player used a Tactical Cube or a Sphere in that last tournament.

STAW is still a great game but we all are seriously starting to question the intelligence or sanity of the WK developers and WK forum mods. After a year, the Borg are still not fixed, some scenarios (both OP and expansion) are completely unbalanced or just stupid, and official rulings on obvious problems make things worse than they were before.

We even lost our awesome TO, Jim, who has sold off his collection though we did get another awesome TO named Bill. I'm just wondering if anyone at WK has noticed any problems or is the guy(s) running the whole show the problem.
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Sodoff Baldrick
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The borg are not "fixed" but they are much more contained in the suggested format. Having to have 3 ships and stay to the 50 pt limit or 8 points for the biggies, borg players have to make big choices. I play at 3 playces, one is faction pure and the borg never really took off at those events. At the other 2 since the new format came out we have seen a dip in borg ships hitting the table, they can't afford both captains & upgrades to stay alive. Also fighters have been big in curtailing them.

I am sure other venues have different results, but we have seen some positive ones. We have gotten a few players back because of the new rules. We lost a bit between, borg, dreads and scenarios.

I will agree the scenarios blow lately. I talked to a few guys yesterday that I haven't seen since Collective 2. They said they want to play, but when it comes to jousting in open space and other games, other games wins for them Hopefully WK turns this around with the next group of OPs.
 
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J Lin
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It should probably be noted that even if WizKids acknowledges that there's a problem, you have to consider how long it takes for anything to get down the pipeline.

The rules forum is relatively new, and then drastically changed the fielding composition and meta, but then is pasted on top of Scenarios where the format may not have been relevant. The OPs are designed many months ahead of time and made available in advance; that means that there was no way the Resistance OPs were going to mesh well.

However, since the new OPs were not yet spoiled, that gives them the potential to be re-adjusted with the new suggested play scenarios in mind, and then later down the line we might start seeing OPs with concessions toward some of the tournament rulings/changes/balances.

Other than drastically re-costing/errataing/re-ruling the Borg - all options of which are grossly impractical in terms of both rules muck about and printing erratas (if that is the direction they go seeing this latest Kuvak reprint, and then we'll see if they redo the Mirror Defiant generic) - the most practical way for them to go about this is by designing the scenarios in such a way that it curbs back the Borg/whatever. IE: Encouraging the use of upgrades and crew in the scenario which makes many recommended-play Borg builds less potent due to their inherent high ship cost, or adding objectives that can be used to win with these kinds of builds to ablate high damage/survival builds.

This pretty much solves the problem in the regards that people already have all sorts of house rules for the Borg, and WizKids couldn't care less about how people ban or recost outside of suggested play environments. Things like Sector Conditions but beefed up or more fine tuned to be used in official play is really all that's needed.
 
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Evan
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Stormtrooper721 wrote:
Kobold47, the really undeniably stupid thing is that if I had tried it and had succeeded it would have automatically cost me the game. In other words, I automatically lose for completing the mission even if I have 60 points, destroyed the aperature, and escaped to the Alpha Quadrant and even if my opponent did absolutely nothing and has 0 points.

Yes, everybody else finds that stupid. How do you defend it? Please enlighten everyone else on the planet.


You're right. If you had played the game the way that you thought it had been written, you would have lost. It takes some serious chutzpah to claim that the stupidity lies with Wizkids for not having written the scenario that you thought you had read.

(There's another possible claim, that it's inherently stupid to make an Endgame scenario for which returning to the Alpha Quadrant isn't the win condition. Plenty of people have made this claim too, and indeed, my venue is house-ruling the scenario in that direction. I anticipate lots of 60-0 games that end on turn two or three without any player interaction. Yaaay.)

Even so, I understand what a frustrating experience that must have been. And since you asked so nicely, I'd be happy to share my opinions about the scenario as written. Here's one idea for how to approach it (the kernel of which has been shamelessly plagiarized from Charles):


List Name

USS Voyager (30)
Rudolph Ransom (2)
Adm. Maxwell Forrest (3)
Tom Paris (4)
Multi-Adaptive Shields (5)
Ship SP: 44

Resource: Flagship Independent (Romulan) (10)
Kraxon (26)
Gul Evek (2)
Flagship (0)
Amat'Igan (3)
Hikaru Sulu (4)
Shroud (1)
Ship SP: 36

Total Build SP: 90

Generated by STAW Builder
http://www.dracossoftware.com/STAWHome.html


Voyager will be rolling five defense dice against each Borg attack; the Kraxon will have three with a reroll and a BS conversion. The blind ship will use Forrest's fleet action to get back to the Alpha Quadrant as soon as possible, and the Kraxon can absorb most of the damage it takes along the way. After that, the other two ships camp out in the nebula indefinitely. Or, if the Kraxon takes too much damage, it can go home too, and Voyager will stay behind and taunt the jousters from the safety of Borg space. (I have a few different versions of this, for example, a penalty-pure one in which the Kraxon gets shield repair, and another that loads it up with upgrades so that it and the blind ship can try to destroy the hub while Voyager stays behind.)

Will any of these succeed? I don't know; I haven't had time to test them yet, so at the moment I'm not that much better off than a guy who just learned the scenario rules a day or two ago. But if they don't work, I'm not going to throw a self-righteous tantrum about how those morons at WizKids made the scenario wrong and heap abuse on anyone who disagrees.
 
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Daniel van de Laar
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I think the problem with the scenario is how the objective reads:

Quote:
Have the only ship(s) left in the play area at the end of the game.


The three end-game conditions are (1) a time out, having (2) one or (3) both players with no ships left in the play area during the planning phase.

In other words, in order to win, I have to have at least one ship left in the play area when the game either times out, or alternately, when I have either destroyed all my opponents ships, or they have left the play area for some other reason.

That means that if send one or more ships to destroy the hub, whatever ships I leave behind have to stay alive until the game ends, or I lose.

Think.

That.

Through.

Seriously. In order to destroy the hub - I can't use actions to modify dice, so I need a ship that can survive at least two rounds in Borg space, then as many rounds in the conduit as it takes to destroy it.

Let's say I'm a gambler, and I think - hey - I'll the blind booster into the conduit - it's only 30 points, and maybe with my remaining fleet I can wipe out my opponent.

That 30 point ship has to survive the two rounds it will take to fly to the conduit (4 attacks of 4 dice each, at -2 defense dice), means that I will be spending actions on either battle stations, or more likely, an evade, and taking 1-2 hits each of the two rounds (unless it takes me longer to get to the conduit). The spread there averages 3 hits, so lets's say that the sum of the ship's shields and hull are 8 points, that leaves us 5 points - and now that we're in the conduit, we get no actions.

So with 4 attack dice, we can expect to be dead in 3 rounds.

We need to do 10 points of damage without using actions, and that means that our blind buy ships will need 4 to 5 rounds to pull that off, but since we only have about three rounds before we die - most of the blind buy ships that make it this far will die in the conduit.

Meanwhile, the ships you left behind are fighting a 120 pt. vs. 90 pt. battle.

Statistically speaking - you're probably going to lose.

Unfortunately, sending a ship large enough to survive the conduit only DECREASES your chance of survival, because it means the fleet that remains will be that much weaker (120 vs. 80, or 70 is even easier to pull off than 120 vs. 90).

It isn't that it is IMPOSSIBLE to win if you send a ship to the conduit, it is rather that in doing so you are purposely handicapping your remaining fleet - and unless something survives in the play area, you lose regardless of who has the most fleet points.

I am sure there are some scenarios that might work - sending a half decent ship to the conduit, destroying the hub, and then running avoiding the enemy until time runs out - possibly spamming with cloaked mines - but seriously - the play area is halved, and staying alive that long in such conditions isn't going to be easy - and it isn't the sort of strategy most players would put their trust in.

If I were playing anyone, and they went for the conduit, I would just destroy whatever ships they left behind. If they didn't leave any - then I win, and if they do? Then I will probably win because my fleet is full strength, and theirs has been diminished as many points as they send into Borg space.

That being the case, it is a pretty good bet that the person who sends his ship into the conduit is going to lose the round because he sent voluntarily diminished the size of his remaining fleet, whose survival (in the play area) is required for a win scenario.

Given that going for the conduit significantly diminishes the odds of winning, it follows that people are going to think the scenario wasn't designed very well.

If having a ship in the play area at the end of the game was not a part of the win scenario - that would be a whole 'nother story.

Personally I think the game should end if/when the hub is destroyed. That would make running for the hub a viable win scenario, and radically change/invigorate the scenario.

Perhaps that was originally intended? Omitted? I don't know. But as sits today (January 13, 2015), I think the scenario basically limits you to either a forfeiture of any chance of winning by going for the conduit, or a settling the matter in an 120 point joust.

Some people feel that sort of thing (especially if it isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened) reflects poorly upon everyone from the designers of the scenario, up to the company using the scenario to promote their products.

Not everyone is as vociferous, mind you, but I expect a lot (the majority) of people are more disappointed by the scenario than impressed by it.

I'll probably put up a poll to verify that.
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