Jim Cote
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Is this phase completely informal? How do you prevent players from changing their minds based on other players' choices?

If he's doing A then I'm doing B!
Then if he's doing B then I'm doing A!
Then if he's doing A then I'm doing B!
Then if he's doing B then I'm doing A!
...

Is there any turn order enforced on deal-making?
 
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Andreas
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Re: "Calling for Support" sequence
The Iron Throne Track...
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Jim Cote
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Re: "Calling for Support" sequence
Does it actually say that anywhere? I couldn't find it in the rules or the FAQ.
 
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Anthony Simons
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Re: "Calling for Support" sequence
ekted wrote:
Is this phase completely informal? How do you prevent players from changing their minds based on other players' choices?

If he's doing A then I'm doing B!
Then if he's doing B then I'm doing A!
Then if he's doing A then I'm doing B!
Then if he's doing B then I'm doing A!
...

Is there any turn order enforced on deal-making?


There's no need to enforce turn order; as support is not spent one would commonly use all the support one can (which was one of the reasons folk considered the fleets too powerful in the basic game).

The only people likely to change their minds (the attacker can't because he's already marched and the defender can't because he is being attacked) are other players and even so this is not going to result in the "if he does this I will do that" set of responses as support is not vulnerable to the attack taking place.

I just don't see a requirement for establishing some sort of order; indecision should be taken as a refusal.
 
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Jim Cote
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Re: "Calling for Support" sequence
It wasn't so much that the decision would be based on future battles, but that the supporters involved might change their mind based on loose alliances.

A: "If you help him against me, then our deal there is off."
B: "Then I'll make an alliance with C."
C: "Ok I'll help you here."
D: "Then I'll help A here."
C: "If you do then I'm attcking you there, later on."
D: "Ok, then I won't help A now, but I'm going to attack there next turn."
C: "Then I won't help B."

I'm just guessing how things might possibly go. If everyone's decisions rely on everyone else's decisions, it's called a feedback loop. There should be a way to break it in stalemate situations.
 
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George Van Voorn
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Re: "Calling for Support" sequence
Quote:
There should be a way to break it in stalemate situations.


There is, as already mentioned. It is up to the decision by the Iron Throne Holder! That player decides on all issues regarding play order. This prevents indecision situations and stalemates. Of course, the Iron Throne Player MUST make up his mind at some point...
 
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Jim Cote
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Re: "Calling for Support" sequence
oetan wrote:
Quote:
There should be a way to break it in stalemate situations.


There is, as already mentioned. It is up to the decision by the Iron Throne Holder! That player decides on all issues regarding play order. This prevents indecision situations and stalemates. Of course, the Iron Throne Player MUST make up his mind at some point...


I really don't see how that can work. How can the Iron Throne Holder tell another player what their decision is?
 
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Anthony Simons
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Re: "Calling for Support" sequence
ekted wrote:
I'm just guessing how things might possibly go. If everyone's decisions rely on everyone else's decisions, it's called a feedback loop. There should be a way to break it in stalemate situations.


Well, while the situation you describe could arise (though these would be very loyal allies, threatening another supporter in a game like this where power shifts from turn to turn) I see no need to introduce a rule to deal with it; "stalemate situations" cannot exist because only one side can win the battle. If you figure out a method to break this loop then it becomes a question of where it is a fair point to break the loop, so another situation would arise.

I think the general consensus is that once support is pledged it cannot be withdrawn but I cannot find a rule to support this. If either side decides not to give support then they don't - it's as simple as that. I get the impression it is meant to be a fairly fluid system, so I wouldn't dwell on this stuff too long and encourage your fellow players not to overanalyse the simple yes-or-no decision they have to make.

Catch-22 situations can also arise, but then isn't this the whole point of Diplomacy-style games?

If you can come up with a fair method of breaking the loop I would be interested to hear it, and might even introduce it to any game where the problem is significant.
 
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Anthony Simons
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Re: "Calling for Support" sequence
Oh, by the way, I agree the Iron Throne cannot be used in such situations.
 
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Mark Christopher
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Re: "Calling for Support" sequence
While we've never had a problem with this come up, there seems to be a simple way for the Iron Throne track to decide the issue. The first person on the track who could support the battle, has to decide what to do. Then the next, and so on, down the track. Nice, easy, and forces people to make their decisions.

As I said, though, I've never seen it be an issue before, though that may change with different players.
 
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Jim Cote
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Re: "Calling for Support" sequence
Mark, your suggestion is what I expected the rules to say when I got to the details of Calling for Support.
 
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Mark Christopher
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Re: "Calling for Support" sequence
I'm surprised that the rules don't address it (does the FAQ? I presume not), but hopefully everyone in the game would be agreeable to using the Iron Throne track to do so. It seems to be within the spirit of the rules.
 
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Rob Corn
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Re: "Calling for Support" sequence
FFG has said (see http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=...):

The call for support step should happen as follows:
-First, each player may support the battle (in Iron Throne order if necessary).
-Second, each player may use any ally cards (in Iron Throne order if necessary). [note - for the Storm of Swords expansion only]

Please note that strength is not added in this step, support is only declared. Therefore, certain cards (such as an Arryn Lookout) could still prevent strength from being added.
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George Van Voorn
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Re: "Calling for Support" sequence
Quote:
oetan wrote:
Quote:
There should be a way to break it in stalemate situations.


There is, as already mentioned. It is up to the decision by the Iron Throne Holder! That player decides on all issues regarding play order. This prevents indecision situations and stalemates. Of course, the Iron Throne Player MUST make up his mind at some point...


I really don't see how that can work. How can the Iron Throne Holder tell another player what their decision is?


Again. No, of course you cannot tell a person what his decision should be. But the Iron Throne Holder (ITH) decides who has to make the first decision, etc. So, example, player C, the ITH, lets player A decide first. A decides X (whatever: I attack D). Then the ITH lets D decides (then I do this). Then B, and then C himself. You cannot force players to WHAT decision they make, but you can force them to MAKE a decision, and in what order. That should effectively eliminate your stalemate problems.

Oetan
 
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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Re: "Calling for Support" sequence
oetan wrote:
But the Iron Throne Holder (ITH) decides who has to make the first decision, etc.

Going in the order of the Iron Throne track (as leberegel & markus_kt said) makes more sense to me, as that's how order is determined elsewhere.
 
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George Van Voorn
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Re: "Calling for Support" sequence
Quote:
Going in the order of the Iron Throne track (as leberegel & markus_kt said) makes more sense to me, as that's how order is determined elsewhere.


Oh, yeah, sure. The initial point was that the problem can be solved in different ways, of which mine is one and the one you mention is another.
 
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Rob Corn
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Re: "Calling for Support" sequence
oetan wrote:
Quote:
Going in the order of the Iron Throne track (as leberegel & markus_kt said) makes more sense to me, as that's how order is determined elsewhere.


Oh, yeah, sure. The initial point was that the problem can be solved in different ways, of which mine is one and the one you mention is another.


Fantasy Flight Games has clarified this and said it's the Iron Throne order.

Iron Throne order is used for just about every decision, except for House Card text resolution which goes in Fiefdoms order (well, 'ignore' or 'cancels' first, then other text, but the latest FAQ http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/PDF/agotfaqnew.pdf explains this pretty well).

Allowing the Iron Throne holder to arbitrarily set the order for everyone else seems too powerful, although in this particular case it might not be a big deal. In our games the order of support was important maybe once or twice a game if that.
 
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Re: "Calling for Support" sequence
There are two possible approaches to this:

One approach is: Players declare support (or the lack of) in the order of Iron Throne track.

Second approach is: If players are unable to agree on the order in which they would declare support, then it's a TIE (all players sort of "bid 0" on who wants to go first), and so ITholder has to say who goes first, who goes next etc.

Agree on one of these before the game and stick to it.
 
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Conan McNamara
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Re: "Calling for Support" sequence
In my opinion, a more 'thematic' solution when faced with a stalemate is to have the support of troops be given in reverse order on The King's Court track.

The King's Court represents a house's level of "intrigue, spies, and secret communications." So the stronger your position on this track, the more likely you are to know the actions of other houses beforehand. The player with the strongest position on this track should have the option of pledging support last, allowing them respond to the actions given by the other houses.
 
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