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Subject: LLTC rss

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James
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Is the LM of the broken leader reversed when checking LLTC for personnel units in his location with a lower morale level or does this only apply when a leader is eliminated?
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Miroslav Dráb
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According to ASLSK3 rulebook yes.
Page 9 "If a leader breaks........with any negative leadership DRM added to the DR rather than subtracted from it."
I think ASL and ASLSK dont differs in this case.
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Klas Malmstrom
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ASL Index:

LLTC (Leader-Loss Task Check; an additional TC caused by the breaking of a previously unbroken leader with a higher Morale Level than other friendly units in the same Location. The level of the required TC is equal to the strength of the negative leadership modifier of the affected leader; e.g., 0 is a NTC, -1 is a 1TC, etc.)
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Ted Kim
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If the leader undergoes quality reduction due to exceeding ELR, do you reverse the original leader modifier (before quality change) or new reduced one (after)?
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Marc Hanna
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tedhkim wrote:
If the leader undergoes quality reduction due to exceeding ELR, do you reverse the original leader modifier (before quality change) or new reduced one (after)?


I believe since leader checks and resolves first, the drm is for the "after" condition.
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Klas Malmstrom
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Honosbinda wrote:
tedhkim wrote:
If the leader undergoes quality reduction due to exceeding ELR, do you reverse the original leader modifier (before quality change) or new reduced one (after)?


I believe since leader checks and resolves first, the drm is for the "after" condition.

I think there are some conflicting Q&A on the subject.
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Martí Cabré

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klasmalmstrom wrote:
Honosbinda wrote:
tedhkim wrote:
If the leader undergoes quality reduction due to exceeding ELR, do you reverse the original leader modifier (before quality change) or new reduced one (after)?


I believe since leader checks and resolves first, the drm is for the "after" condition.

I think there are some conflicting Q&A on the subject.


And how do you prefer to play it?
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Ruben Rigillo
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IMHNewbieO
10.2 states: "A LLMC is always based on the unit's current Morale Level, even if that unit is broken or has a reduced or increased Morale Level"
I think this could be reversed to Leaders' status too.
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Marc Hanna
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tedhkim wrote:
If the leader undergoes quality reduction due to exceeding ELR, do you reverse the original leader modifier (before quality change) or new reduced one (after)?


Looking into this, A19.1 is a higher rule number and takes precedent over A10.2. Therefore, if ELR failure is immediate substitution, the LLMC/TC is based on the new morale of the leader, because that is it's current morale as per 10.2.
 
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Klas Malmstrom
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Qwirz wrote:
IMHNewbieO
10.2 states: "A LLMC is always based on the unit's current Morale Level, even if that unit is broken or has a reduced or increased Morale Level"
I think this could be reversed to Leaders' status too.

I think that this passage of A10.2 refers to the unit taking the LLTC/LLMV - not the unit causing it.

Here is one Q&A that supports that:
A10.2 & A10.31
A 9-1 leader is stacked with an 8 ML squad (both with ELR 3). They are fired on resulting in a 1MC. The leader takes his 1MC
and rolls 6,6, for a Casualty MC [A10.31]. This also exceeds the leader’s ELR. The leader takes wound severity dr and rolls a 5
for a fatal wound, and so is eliminated. The squad passes its 1MC from the fire attack. For purposes of determining if the squad
will take a LLMC for the now eliminated leader...
1) Is the leader’s pre-attack ML of 9 used, such that the squad will need to take a LLMC? or..
2) Does ELR replacement occur before the effects of the Casualty MC are applied, as per A10.31 and as such it is an 8-1 leader
that is eliminated and the squad will not need a LLMC?
A. 1) is correct.

But as I said - there are other Q&A that are in conflict with this one. Perhaps a new one needs to be sent to MMP to clear it up.
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Ruben Rigillo
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Yep!
Actually I read "current" as "at the moment of the fire hit".
IIRC there was the same question on the ASLSK forum time ago. I have to find it again.
 
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Ruben Rigillo
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Here it is and still not at a true definition
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/9891927#9891927
And I WAS HE WHO POSTED IT!
 
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Marc Hanna
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Qwirz wrote:
Yep!
Actually I read "current" as "at the moment of the fire hit".
IIRC there was the same question on the ASLSK forum time ago. I have to find it again.


'Current' being 'at the present time,' basic definition, not 'at the moment of fire hit' unless explicitly stated. Words do have definitions that should supersede personal interpretations, unless it's the definition of 'marriage,' of course.

The process is sequential in time in terms of game activity. After the leader fails ELR and drops morale (usually), then the next step is to decide if an LLTC is required. Although I suppose in the most strict sense, a dead leader has a morale of '0,' or 'non-existent,' so it may be that the pre-effect morale of the leader applies, if we backtrack the precise definition of 'current' as suggested. Certainly would make it easier to flow the game not having to figure out interim morale for this somewhat exotic rule - base the LLMC/TC on the moment of fire hit as Ruben suggests.
 
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Russ Bunten
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Cornelius
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Shrug.

Dunno. I've always played that the sequence is that by the time the Leader can be replaced, he must already be broken/Wounded/Dead.

Seems counterinuitive to me that an unbroken unit could be replaced due to ELR failure.

Broken (Generating LLTC as applicable)
Reduced (if applicable, generating LLMC as applicable)
Replaced (as applicable)

That's how I've always played it and it seems to cover most situations well enough.
 
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Marc Hanna
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Naplock wrote:
Shrug.

Dunno. I've always played that the sequence is that by the time the Leader can be replaced, he must already be broken/Wounded/Dead.

Seems counterinuitive to me that an unbroken unit could be replaced due to ELR failure.

Broken (Generating LLTC as applicable)
Reduced (if applicable, generating LLMC as applicable)
Replaced (as applicable)

That's how I've always played it and it seems to cover most situations well enough.


I agree -- leader breaks, then ELR fail immediately per 19.13, then on to the LLTC a lower numbered rule. Russ, you are saying that immediately in 19.13 is superseded by 10.2 and that it is not indeed immediate. Seems a reasonable way to play it to get rid of this problem, but hard to interpret that in the rules.
 
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Damon Baume
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My worthless 2c worth...

I play it that you use the LM of the leader before he reduces (which seems to be in line with the Perry Sez Q&A quoted by Klas).

To me this makes sense game-wise because you could run into the situation where a 9-0 reduces to an 8-1 and you would actually benefit from the leader's reduction if you used the post-reduction LM - similarly, a 7-0 reducing to a 6+1. In simulation terms this also makes sense to me as a squad should be more more adversely affected the higher quality leader that breaks/is eliminated.
 
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Klas Malmstrom
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Honosbinda wrote:
I agree -- leader breaks, then ELR fail immediately per 19.13, then on to the LLTC a lower numbered rule.

But the leader that breaks (and thusly generates a LLTC) is the leader in its pre-Replaced state. E.g., it is a 9-1 leaders that breaks, not a 8-1.
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Marc Hanna
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klasmalmstrom wrote:
Honosbinda wrote:
I agree -- leader breaks, then ELR fail immediately per 19.13, then on to the LLTC a lower numbered rule.

But the leader that breaks (and thusly generates a LLTC) is the leader in its pre-Replaced state. E.g., it is a 9-1 leaders that breaks, not a 8-1.


That's a very good point.
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Michael Tisdel
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klasmalmstrom wrote:
ASL Index:

LLTC (Leader-Loss Task Check; an additional TC caused by the breaking of a previously unbroken leader with a higher Morale Level than other friendly units in the same Location. The level of the required TC is equal to the strength of the negative leadership modifier of the affected leader; e.g., 0 is a NTC, -1 is a 1TC, etc.)


So, you don't get a negative modifier to the LLTC/LLMC if the leader in question has a positive leadership modifier.

In other words, you can't get any benefit from fragging Lt. Neidermeyer!
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