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Subject: Line of sight/force choke question (with pictures!) rss

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Zach Hillegas
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So, I was playing Homecoming the other day as the Imperial player, and there was an unprecedented line of sight situation with Vader's force choke that undeniably could have given me the win that round, but I chose not to do it out of not being 100% sure.

So, I understand that in a situation like this:



...Vader would have line of sight to Luke and be able to Force Choke him. However, the Rebels had a meat shield around Luke, blocking him like this:



My understanding is that you wouldn't be able to do the "around the wall" line of sight deal with those Fenn and Jyn in the way, though I couldn't find an explicit reason why. So, I decided to wear down Fenn instead, and eventually wiped him off the map with Vader, resulting in this:



So, the question is, could Vader use Force Choke from that spot if Jyn is adjacent to Luke?

The book makes it clear that you have line of sight when both figures are on adjacent sides of an ending wall, but it wasn't super clear on how figures in adjacent spaces would block that. As I understand it, you could trace a line from Vader's top right corner down to the bottom two corners of Luke. Do other figures prohibit you from being allowed to use that corner?
 
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Pasi Ojala
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I think Vader is already adjacent to Luke in both cases (shares a corner), so he has LoS in both cases.

Edit: not adjacent, but has LoS
 
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Scott Forster
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those two are definitely not adjacent, because:

RRG, page 4, Adjacent wrote:
Two spaces that share only an edge that is a wall or blocking
terrain are not adjacent.


But!

Both Luke and Darth have LoS to each other, because that shared corner can see all three other corners of the enemy's space. The presence of two guys off to the side does not change that, because none of those lines go through their spaces (or any other spaces, for that matter).

See LoS Examples 5 & 6 on page 26 of your RRG.
 
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Zach Hillegas
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a1bert wrote:
I think Vader is already adjacent to Luke in both cases (shares a corner), so he has LoS. (You always have LoS if the figures are adjacent.)


Nope. The book states that if their only edge is shared by a wall, then they're not considered adjacent. There's a picture in the appendix that shows this exact situation, and it states that the figures are not adjacent, but that they do have line of sight to each other. Unfortunately, it doesn't make it totally clear if that's still possible when there's other figures in those spots. :/
 
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Pasi Ojala
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skotothalamos wrote:
those two are definitely not adjacent, because:

RRG, page 4, Adjacent wrote:
Two spaces that share only an edge that is a wall or blocking
terrain are not adjacent.


But!

Also quote the line above!
Adjacent wrote:
A space is adjacent to each other space that shares an edge or corner with that space.


Those spaces do not share only an edge, they share a corner.
 
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Scott Forster
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zillegas wrote:
Unfortunately, it doesn't make it totally clear if that's still possible when there's other figures in those spots. :/


I'm not sure the rulebook has a section on whether Line of Sight can be blocked by figures who do not interact with the lines in any way, so I'm not sure what there is to clarify.
 
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Scott Forster
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a1bert wrote:

Those spaces do not share only an edge, they share a corner.


please look at page 26 of the RRG, example 5&6.

I can't even conceive of a situation where two spaces would share "only an edge" and not a corner. Does the grid just disappear at the end of the wall for that to happen? How could two spaces that share an edge that is a wall not also share the corner of that edge? That interpretation makes absolutely no sense.
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Zach Hillegas
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I would agree, but the line of sight appendix shows a situation with this exact setup, and makes it clear that the spaces aren't adjacent. The RRG states that they're adjacent if they share an edge or a corner, but NOT adjacent if their only shared edge is a wall, which I suppose negates the corner.
 
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So, there's a contradiction between the definition of adjacency and the examples. The definition does not seem to be all-encompassing.
 
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Zach Hillegas
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Yup, there's nothing that says it's not possible, so I suppose that I could have done it all along. I secretly ended up letting the Rebels win this mission anyway (their morale was pretty low after three losses) but it's nice for my own personal pride knowing that there was yet another way that I could have had the victory if I wanted.
 
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Zach Hillegas
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a1bert wrote:
So, there's a contradiction between the definition of adjacency and the examples. The definition does not seem to be all-encompassing.


Not necessarily. If anything, the book says, "Spaces are adjacent if X," and then it goes on to say "but, they're not adjacent if Y." I think we're meant to understand that the Y conditions override the X conditions, but it's hard to get that out of it unless you're really scrutinizing.
 
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Scott Forster
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a1bert wrote:
So, there's a contradiction between the definition of adjacency and the examples. The definition does not seem to be all-encompassing.


There is not a contradiction. The second sentence is limiting the scope of the first.

By your literal interpretation of the rulebook there, since it does not call out corners, then all walls can be seen through at the corners of spaces, even if that corner is blocked by, say, a 5-square-long wall. They must be getting shot a lot!
 
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The only issue is that none of the 4 bullet-points on Adjacent exclude this situation. But, you need 2 MP to get from one to another, so we should add that to the 5th bullet point.

 
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Scott Forster
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a1bert wrote:
The only issue is that none of the 4 bullet-points on Adjacent exclude this situation. But, you need 2 MP to get from one to another, so we should add that to the 5th bullet point.



except that first bullet point there.
 
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skotothalamos wrote:
a1bert wrote:
The only issue is that none of the 4 bullet-points on Adjacent exclude this situation. But, you need 2 MP to get from one to another, so we should add that to the 5th bullet point.



except that first bullet point there.

I just don't get the English of it then. shake How did the sharing corners disappear from the equation. But I concede and believe you that the spaces divided by a wall can not share a corner for adjacency, but for LoS they can (well, it is listed as permitted under Line of Sight).


(It was the only that got me mixed up. Why is it there, wouldn't the sentence work without it? Removing it: two spaces that share an edge that is a wall or blocking terrain are not adjacent makes it much more understandable.)
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Adrian Firth
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Not adjacent but they have line of sight however the adjacent rule for this situation is probably aimed more at melee characters (yea I know you want to force choke) as melee characters have to be adjacent to attack and wouldn't be able to do so here unless they had reach which falls under counting spaces not going through walls etc.
 
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Scott Forster
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a1bert wrote:
It was the only that got me mixed up. Why is it there, wouldn't the sentence work without it? Removing it: two spaces that share an edge that is a wall or blocking terrain are not adjacent makes it much more understandable.)


Agreed. time to take a sharpie to my rulebook.
 
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Obviously, interpreting the nuances of English as a non-native speaker sometimes makes you see things that are not there.
 
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Joshua Imobersteg
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a1bert wrote:
Obviously, interpreting the nuances of English as a non-native speaker sometimes makes you see things that are not there.


Interpreting English as a native speaker sometimes makes you see things that are not there.

Seriously, it's the most annoyingly convoluted and difficult language on the planet because it ignores all of it's own rules for arbitrary reasons.
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Tim Price
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It is a little confusing the way it is worded. It is talking about if the shared edge you have is of a certain type only, not that only the edge is shared. English stinks

Here is one that came up tonight with Vader. Vader can totally see around this corner and Force Choke, right? The rules don't have an example this extreme but it should work the same as the "in cover" example in the appendix and you are allowed to draw one of the lines aligned with a wall:

(Vader is the black dot, Luke is the red dot)



The rules make a comment about the idea being you are popping out of cover when you have LOS on someone who doesn't have it in return on you so if this is cover in this game I am OK with it.

 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Tim, Vader has LoS in your example, yes, so he can Force Choke.
 
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Seth
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nungunz wrote:
Seriously, it's the most annoyingly convoluted and difficult language on the planet because it ignores all of it's own rules for arbitrary reasons.


whistle laugh
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