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Warfighter: The Tactical Special Forces Card Game» Forums » General

Subject: Every day the same rss

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All who subscribe to this warfighter page knows the score. That, everyday between 5 and 10 new posts appear. the overwhelming majority of them, are top heavy with rule questions. Is a total rule book reworking going to be made available in the near future? It is obviously extremely lacking. Or even just an indexed, 500 page FAQ, with official answers to what has been posted here so far, may help people a little!
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David Valadez
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I don't know if I maybe just got lucky, but after reading the rules and following through the play though, I was able to replicate the sample mission on my own just fine using the turn order on the play sheet. You know, the one many people say is useless but I found very handy when learning. I still had to look up keywords and stuff.

A lot of the questions that are posted are things that are in the rule book. Today someone asked if a suppressed target could be targeted again. Someone else asked if you draw up to your full hand at the start of the turn. These answers are in the rules. But to answer your question, I suppose a rewrite would be helpful, but there will inevitably still be rules questions.
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Greg
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While some of the questions come from ambiguity or omission of something minor in the rules, I've found that a majority of them are from people not reading the rulebook fully.

Granted, it's not organized in the best fashion, but anyone that gets the game and immediately sits down to play while reading the rulebook is just asking for trouble.

There are a lot of card interactions, keywords and varieties of abilities. There's only so much room on cards for text, so there's a shorthand of sort that take some getting used to. There's a glossary that's very helpful.

I've tried to help people out, and most of the time it's a matter of me opening up the rulebook and finding the answer.

I just answered one on drawing cards. Page 15 at the top left tells about the Discard and Draw action. "Discard any number of cards from your Hand and Draw up to your Soldier's current Health value." It says it there plain as day as part of the actions soldiers can take.

People have a variety of backgrounds of how much gaming they've done and what types of games they've played. Some people are used to one system working a certain way and assume things about this system. Some people skim the rules to get the gist of the game because they are so excited to play it. I think that the backgrounds of people and/or personalities can effect how they interpret the rules and cause them to ask questions.

Sure the rules aren't perfect and there are questions, but how many comparable type games don't have rules questions?
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Vladimir Lehotai
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Hahma wrote:
While some of the questions come from ambiguity or omission of something minor in the rules, I've found that a majority of them are from people not reading the rulebook fully.


Indeed. My only rules problems were quite minor, but maybe it's because I try not to overthink things (as is quite usual in the rules questions from what I've seen).
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Tom Tjarks
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When I reviewed the game after it was delivered to me, I found that he used the words Action or Action Card a little too interchangeably. Once I discovered he was talking about different concepts in the gameplay, the rules got really clear.
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While rulebook has some exploits and ambiguities and rules layout is not user friendly, this was the first game I've played without making any mistake.

As it was said most of questions can be solved just following rules we were provided.

There is also DVG video which put some light on rules.
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Part of me wonders how many people actually played the example game at the end that walks players very closely through all the major mechanics.

I started there, and then referred to the other parts of the PDF rule book using "Ctrl-F" to find what I needed as things came up.

The latest video tutorial is quite helpful as well. But it-is-what-it-is I suppose.
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Michael Andersch
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When or before I play for the first time, I do not want to have to watch video tutorials, accompany gameplay with CTRL-Fs, have to puzzle things together from multiple paragraphs or have to read through a batch of rules questions in the web.

If all this is necessary for playing such a simple game, then the rulebook clearly has missed his aim.

And although many of the answers to the rules questions can be found somewhere in the rulebook, obviously people are not successful in doing so (at least I do assume, that they do not ask just because they're a little bit bored at that moment).

To me, this is more a cruelbook than a rulebook.

But it's the same with DVG's other rulebooks, too. Three or two years ago, it was the same with HL:CAO and TAL. Five to ten new questions every day angry
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The rule book for the game is a bit different than other games I play. This rule book is very similar to Dan's Rise of the Zombies Game. It does take me a few times back and forth to find some rules or clarifications. Only thing I would suggest adding is Index in the back of the rule books. This would be a great benefit.

I am guilty of over thinking on game play, and guilty of posting question's quicker than picking up the rule book sometimes. 90 Percent of the time I am on my iPad searching the forum to see if a question has already been asked. Ipads are not the best to search that's for sure... Then embarrassed to find out the question was right in front of me... (FACE PALM)

I do appreciate and enjoy the community discussions and involvement related to the game. I thank you for your assistance and help with the game.

I play Flames of War and the rule book is the size of the Yellow Pages and need a dolly to carry it around. Even after a year of dedicated play, the are questions, clarifications, assumptions, and sometime loopholes found in the game play and written rules. There is no perfect rule book or format.

Great Job to Dan on providing me an enjoyable game that I highly recommend, and a shout out to the Gamers who day in and out take time out of their busy days and lives assisting and posting on the forums. It is greatly appreciated...

PS. Forgive me in advance if I have anymore Face Palm questions in the near future.... whistle
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Greg
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Micha wrote:
When or before I play for the first time, I do not want to have to watch video tutorials, accompany gameplay with CTRL-Fs, have to puzzle things together from multiple paragraphs or have to read through a batch of rules questions in the web.

If all this is necessary for playing such a simple game, then the rulebook clearly has missed his aim.

And although many of the answers to the rules questions can be found somewhere in the rulebook, obviously people are not successful in doing so (at least I do assume, that they do not ask just because they're a little bit bored at that moment).

To me, this is more a cruelbook than a rulebook.

But it's the same with DVG's other rulebooks, too. Three or two years ago, it was the same with HL:CAO and TAL. Five to ten new questions every day angry


I didn't have to watch a video to learn the game. But having a video available is helpful if people want to get a visual of how the gameplay is. A ton of games have gameplay videos have been made and are quite helpful for people. Rodney Smith has a great series called "Watch it Played" https://www.youtube.com/user/WatchItPlayed where he takes people step by step through gameplay. "Rhado Runs Through" https://www.youtube.com/user/rahdo is another series that shows how gameplay is. So this is a very common thing.

Some people are not successful in finding answers in just about every rulebook. There are lots of people doing this same thing for lots of games.

I don't see five to ten "New"/different questions asked every day. That's 35-70 "new"/different questions per week and over 140-280 per month. I find that difficult to believe. Not every new thread is a question, as some are session reports, commentary, reviews or things unrelated to rules.

The gameplay mechanics are simple, yes. It's the various card interaction and shorthand used on cards that makes things more complicated. There is only so much room on cards, so there needs to be Keywords.

I totally agree that the rulebook could be better in some regards, but it is far from making the game unlearnable or unplayable. I see a lot of people hear that are quite enjoying the game.

Are there other comparable games (lots of card interactions, keywords, etc) that have great or perfect rules that doesn't have any questions asked? I'd honestly like to know out of curiosity.
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The rulebook isn't great but it's not bad. Also, I think just about every question (not all) can be answered by reading the rule book carefully.

I think the number of questions is indicative of the short attention spans and laziness commonly present among people in this age of instantaneous digital information.

"I don't want to read the book again or read it carefully. Someone please tell me the answer."
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Micha wrote:
When or before I play for the first time, I do not want to have to watch video tutorials, accompany gameplay with CTRL-Fs, have to puzzle things together from multiple paragraphs or have to read through a batch of rules questions in the web.

If all this is necessary for playing such a simple game, then the rulebook clearly has missed his aim.

And although many of the answers to the rules questions can be found somewhere in the rulebook, obviously people are not successful in doing so (at least I do assume, that they do not ask just because they're a little bit bored at that moment).

To me, this is more a cruelbook than a rulebook.

But it's the same with DVG's other rulebooks, too. Three or two years ago, it was the same with HL:CAO and TAL. Five to ten new questions every day angry


Is it outside the realm of possibility that a rulebook that utterly fails for you is usable or even sufficient for someone else?
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Michael Andersch
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Of course the game is neither unlearnable nor unplayable. And of course it Is Great fun to Play.
But with such a simple gameplay, the hurdles that are imposed by the rules are simply to high. And to play it correctly, You have to put much more effort in it than in other games of comparable complexity.

This effort is something DVG should do, not each of us.
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Micha wrote:
Of course the game is neither unlearnable nor unplayable. And of course it Is Great fun to Play.
But with such a simple gameplay, the hurdles that are imposed by the rules are simply to high. And to play it correctly, You have to put much more effort in it than in other games of comparable complexity.

This effort is something DVG should do, not each of us.

Emphasis mine above

That's exactly my point. I didn't find it terribly difficult to play this game correctly, and when I had a question, I referred back to the rulebook and was able to find what I needed with very few exceptions, where Dan and the community helped answer definitively.

By painting with such broad strokes, you are making the assumption that I, and the Warfighter community at large is experiencing the same barrier to entry, that is an unuseable rulebook.

So I ask again, is it possible the rulebook is in a format more than suitable for some gamers, and maybe not everyone?

Michael, I'm not trying to start a fight with you. I just want to make it clear that I don't think you are speaking for everyone when you say the rulebook is unusable.
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Greg
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xBino wrote:
Micha wrote:
Of course the game is neither unlearnable nor unplayable. And of course it Is Great fun to Play.
But with such a simple gameplay, the hurdles that are imposed by the rules are simply to high. And to play it correctly, You have to put much more effort in it than in other games of comparable complexity.

This effort is something DVG should do, not each of us.

Emphasis mine above

That's exactly my point. I didn't find it terribly difficult to play this game correctly, and when I had a question, I referred back to the rulebook and was able to find what I needed with very few exceptions, where Dan and the community helped answer definitively.

By painting with such broad strokes, you are making the assumption that I, and the Warfighter community at large is experiencing the same barrier to entry, that is an unuseable rulebook.

So I ask again, is it possible the rulebook is in a format more than suitable for some gamers, and maybe not everyone?

Michael, I'm not trying to start a fight with you. I just want to make it clear that I don't think you are speaking for everyone when you say the rulebook is unusable.


I totally agree xBino. None of us are trying to fight with you Michael. It's just that at every opportunity, you are taking your personal feelings/emotion and trying to speak for everyone as if we have the same feelings or emotion against the rulebook and DVG in general. We don't all feel that the rules are terrible. Not perfect or great, but not terrible either. Just because they're not perfect or great, it doesn't automatically put them into the terrible level. If people can't play the game because of the rules, then that's different, but I haven't seen anyone say that they can't play the game. You in fact said the game is fun to play.

As far as games of comparable complexity, I still would like to see some of these comparables that have great rules and very few questions. And not just mechanics complexity comparable, but the comparable also has to have individual characters people can play as and have various powers and abilities, weapons and equipment that can be assigned to them. There also has to be several scenarios. There also has to be various action cards that can be used in several different ways and a bad guy element that has variable types, abilities, weapons and special rules for that are different than the team that the players are using.

Mechanically, it's not that hard. It's when you add all the powers, abilities, weapons, equipment, events, action cards, hostile abilities etc, that the complexity comes into play because there can be a ton of combinations that can happen at any different time, depending on what soldiers are in play, how they are equipped, the scenario/objective in play, the action cards drawn, unique locations, variable hostiles that can appear, all make things more complex to write rules for and test.

I've playtested these types of games and know that with so many different combinations and play styles, there can be things that can be missed, because someone will run into a unique situation or think in a different way (like attacking a vehicle with a knife) and find a few ommissions in the the rules.

Also, I've found that games that are heavy in theme, can have more rules questions than euro games with pasted on or non-existent themes. In theme-heavy games, individual players will bring their own views of how something works thematically in the game. Some will second guess something because they have a different take on how thematically something should work, even if the rules say otherwise. Theme-heavy games need to balance the theme/realism with the abstract/mechanics/gameplay that is needed to make it work as best as possible. It's not easy.

I'm done commenting on the competence of the rulebook. I've only commented on it to this point because a lot of people read the threads here before buying games, to get a feel of gameplay and possible issues. I wanted to give those people a view of the game and rules that isn't scewed by personal feelings or emotions.
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Ivor Bolakov
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Really like the game, but the rulebook needs to be better organised.

Quote:
you are making the assumption that I, and the Warfighter community at large


LOL @ 'Warfighter community', as if there is such a thing. The sheer amount of rules questions should tell you enough about the rulebook, but if you're going to be fanboyish over something, nothing will suffice to make you admit it.

Quote:
Not perfect or great


Talking about it in such terms is practically admitting how bad it is. "Surely no-one will notice a modest down-playing of the rulebook problems!"

People have noticed.
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Greg
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OhBollox wrote:
Really like the game, but the rulebook needs to be better organised.

Quote:
you are making the assumption that I, and the Warfighter community at large


LOL @ 'Warfighter community', as if there is such a thing. The sheer amount of rules questions should tell you enough about the rulebook, but if you're going to be fanboyish over something, nothing will suffice to make you admit it.

Quote:
Not perfect or great


Talking about it in such terms is practically admitting how bad it is. "Surely no-one will notice a modest down-playing of the rulebook problems!"

People have noticed.


I certainly hope you are commenting on the rulebooks for Dead of Winter, Twilight Struggle and Galaxy Defenders, considering there are sheer amounts of rules questions for those games as well. Being that is the standard you set above, I'd hope it's a consistent standard.
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Paul S
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I honestly don't think it's a fanboy thing. Maybe it helps if you've played other DVG games - though there are enough differences with this one that previous experience can't hope to solve everything.

I don't think the rules are that bad.

Are they great? No. Could they be improved? Certainly.

But this isn't a Robinson Crusoe rulebook, or a Ghost Stories. There you have some pretty egregious examples of what a rule book ought not to be.

And there is definitely a "read the rules" issue - but that's true across BGG, not just here. I reckon 50% of queries in most forums (and I'll include a good few of my own) would be unecessary if the poser just re-read the rules.

But I can't get uptight about that. The whole BGG setup kind of encourages people to post first, and read the rules after. It is convenient - even if it leads to unecessary rules posts. I'd sooner have too many posts, than discourage posting.

I personally don't think WF is a particularly bad culprit, for all that it could do better.
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Michael Andersch
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xBino wrote:
So I ask again, is it possible the rulebook is in a format more than suitable for some gamers, and maybe not everyone?

Michael, I'm not trying to start a fight with you. I just want to make it clear that I don't think you are speaking for everyone when you say the rulebook is unusable.


Of course the rulebook (or rulebooks in general) are more suitable for one type of gamer than for another, depending of their structure and the individual preferences of the one reading it.
I think this is absolutely normal, as normal as somebody learning better when seing something, others keep things easier when hearing it and so on. Men are different.

And of course, I do not speak for everyone.
But that's also valid for you (and those who consider the rules to be good), as meanwhile enough people have stated, that they don't consider the rules to be good.

I'm also a little bit disappointed and surprised, that nobody criticizes DVG for not improving the 2nd Edition rules.
Even you (and those who say rules are not perfect, but also not too bad) seem to see potential for improvement.
It would have been so easy for DVG to react. But no. Quick and easy money is better than satisfied customers. Why put some hours of work into a product, when there are enough easy-to-satisfy-fans that praise everything DVG publishes, no matter how half-bread it is, and put THEIR effort in improving things, thus doing the work that DVG should have done?
This attitude and ignorance is what makes me really angry.

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Greg
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Truthfully, I'm not pushing for them to do more with their 2nd edition rules because I'm not paying attention to their next wave stuff where the 2nd edition rulebook is being discussed.

Other than some clarifications that I've already learned about, I wouldn't know how to suggest a format or how to do it differently. I'm not a rules writer and I know they aren't easy. So I don't want to go to whatever thread the 2nd edition rules are and say, "make it better" and not have real good suggestions on how to do it.

I learned the game from this rulebook and only had a couple questions that I learned from threads on BGG. So I don't know how to suggest fixing it.

I've dealt with rules from games like Robinson Crusoe, Mice and Mystics, Sergeants Miniatures Game and others that were much worse with ambiguities, hard to figure out, omissions etc. So after dealing with several games that have major rules issues, Warfighter didn't seem bad to me at all. I'm used to looking over rulebooks a lot and re-reading them to get all the minor details. So I never go into any game of any kind of complexity expecting to read the rules once and know everything. Also, despite the difficulty with those games I listed as having very rough rules (though Sergeants has revised its rulebook over the years and Mice and Mystics has improved the expansions rules), I really love those games and have a blast playing them.

Obviously I'd love to have every set of rules be a breeze to get through, but I've recognized that certain games are a lot more difficult to write good rules for, and also that not everyone is a great rules writer. Some games I've had to put more effort into getting the rules down, and have been rewarded with great fun. Some games I've had easy rules to get through and can teach the game really easy.

There is a game called Myth that has been blasted from one side of BGG to the other because of how horrible the rules are. It was pretty unanimous that they were super bad. Despite that some people have said that after getting through the rules, FAQ's and a lot of other stuff, they really enjoyed the game. Megacon Games is working on fixing the rules.

There is a new game called Aquasphere by renowned designer Stefan Feld. The guy that he had write the rules took a certain approach that has a lot of people scratching their head trying to figure them out.

I think all designers, publishers, whoever should do the best they can to put out good complete rules. That should just be the default intention of them, to put out a good game and good rules. Sometimes however, either the game isn't as good as they'd hoped, or the rules don't come out as well as they've hoped. Sometimes it works out to have both be good and everyone's happy.


As far as easy to satisfy fans, that is pretty subjective really. I wouldn't consider myself and some others that enjoy this game to be mindless fanboys just because we had a few questions about the game that we didn't find in the rules. I've asked questions about a lot of games that I own, but I don't think that means I should be mad at the publisher/designer because I had to ask a couple questions. I don't think that makes me easy to please. In fact, it would take a heck of a lot more time and energy for me to continuously lobby for every game publisher that I have rules questions for, to fix the rules. I could look at a heck of a lot of games on my shelf that I would have to bug the publisher about their rules. So call me easy to please I guess, but I'm not going to lobby all those game companies to fix their rules.
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Micha wrote:
I'm also a little bit disappointed and surprised, that nobody criticizes DVG for not improving the 2nd Edition rules.
Even you (and those who say rules are not perfect, but also not too bad) seem to see potential for improvement.

It would be great for them to take the opportunity to improve the rules for the 2nd Edition for new players.

That said, I don't care personally because I know how to play already and will only look through it to learn additional content.

There's another problem that bears some responsibility for the number of duplicate question threads: Use of the Search Function
d10-1 Again, people are lazy and would rather have someone tell them the answer than search for it. Duplicate thread count N
d10-2 The BGG forums and search function are not user friendly, or at least similar to other more conventional websites.
d10-3 When some users post question threads they do us all a disservice by using a generic subject heading such as "Couple of Questions" instead of "Questions regarding hostile reinforcements and drawing action cards." It's even better when the subject heading is modified to show the question as been "answered" or "resolved".

Micha wrote:
when there are enough easy-to-satisfy-fans that praise everything DVG publishes, no matter how half-bread it is, and put THEIR effort in improving things, thus doing the work that DVG should have done?
This attitude and ignorance is what makes me really angry.

There will always be people like that. Unfortunately. I've always thought highly of DVG games in regard to the fun experience I get from playing them. However, they really disappointed me with Fleet Commander Nimitz. So much so that I've cut loose on many different threads and geeklists with my disdain for that game and their efforts with it. That last sentence was off topic but I just had to go there. Sorry.
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Michael Steirn
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I don't have a problem with the rule book in general. I am a massive GMT fan, so i was quite disappointed with the rules as laid out.

Although I had no problems working out rules queries, they were all in the rules book, but it did take a lot of effort to find them out. I can understand peoples annoyance.

While I like Warfighter I will only purchase new expansions for this game, I will not be purchasing other DVG games because all forums seem to have many complaints about their rulebooks.
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Greg
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For what it's worth as far as perspective goes, Warfighter is my first DVG game.

So for me, I've experienced some rules issues from several other game systems/publishers, so the ones for Warfighter weren't much of an issue for me personally.

I can understand Michael's perspective because he's got a history of involvement with other DVG games and sees bad rules as a pattern that has become frustrating. I imagine I'd feel the same way if I had a lot of bad experiences with a game company and they didn't seem to want to make things better.
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Filip "Rastula" Nowakowski
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The Rulebook lacks an overview of the game flow - kind of one page step by step game instruction. But it is manageable without looking to the forum or faq. I'm the living proof .

But I have to admit that i used to search the rulebook in pdf version to find the answers to aroused questions.


So the truth ( for me at least ) lies in the middle - the rules are there but some things are scattered around
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