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Jeff Billings
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Grenades
During any SHOOT Action, Soldiers with grenade markers on their Soldiers Card may toss one grenade. Tossing a grenade does not cause a Soldier to become spotted. The grenade can be tossed at any Spotted Soldier within the thrower’s Toss range. Toss Range is NOT affected by the SHOOT terrain modifiers. Grenades (as well as rockets, such as Panzerfausts, bazooka or PIAT rounds and Light Mortars) attack Units in only 1 physical square on the map, or an Urban Room in Urban Areas.
Blast Check Procedure
Grenades pull up to 4 Blast Hit Checks per grenade – 1 for each target in a Square up to 4. Other Ordnance causes causes 1 or more Blast Hit Checks against all occupants of a Square.
STEP 1. Players with soldiers in the target square Identity Check to see who was hit, with shooting player determining order of the Identity Check among the Players that have targeted Soldiers. (Skip this step if there is less than 4 possible Targets in the case of Grenades and Blast Check each Soldier 1 time.)
STEP 2. Blast Hit Check are made from the shooting players deck.
STEP 3. For each Hit achieved, the player and an opponent of his choice, with a soldier in the target square each make a Damage Check.
STEP 4. Apply both damage results to the identified target.
STEP 5. Repeat steps 2 - 4 for each additional Hit that was achieved, or until all targets are killed or destroyed.
 
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Jeff Billings
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Urban Rooms
Urban Rooms are the locations inside a single Urban Area. Each Urban Room is segmented from each adjacent Urban Room by walls, debris, hedges or red lines of demarcation. They may occupy less than 1 square of the map or up to 10+ squares. As long as the room is clearly segmented treat it as a single room.
If you are in doubt as to what is a room confirm it with an opponent. The game will not suffer as long as you are playing by the same understanding. This interpretation by players is a reasonable accommodation to the large complex game environs needed for Urban Warfare.
The Urban Rooms may have modifiers in them. These modifiers are summed with the Urban Area Modifiers. This is different from all others modifiers found in Sergeants which in other cases replace the printed value with the new value. Urban combat is meant to be different.
Each Urban Room counts as a single Map Square for Distance. Soldiers may move from 1 Urban Room to another Urban Room through doors and windows – or special mouse hole markers joined to explosive charges. See the Mission Special Instructions for using breach/explosive markers since they are dependent on the scenario.
 
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Jeff Billings
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IN CONTACT– Means stacked with in a Crew or directly touching another Soldier.
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Jeffery McCulloch
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Jeff Billings wrote:
Grenades
During any SHOOT Action, Soldiers with grenade markers on their Soldiers Card may toss one grenade. Tossing a grenade does not cause a Soldier to become spotted. The grenade can be tossed at any Spotted Soldier within the thrower’s Toss range. Toss Range is NOT affected by the SHOOT terrain modifiers. Grenades (as well as rockets, such as Panzerfausts, bazooka or PIAT rounds and Light Mortars) attack Units in only 1 physical square on the map, or an Urban Room in Urban Areas.
Blast Check Procedure
Grenades pull up to 4 Blast Hit Checks per grenade – 1 for each target in a Square up to 4. Other Ordnance causes causes 1 or more Blast Hit Checks against all occupants of a Square.
STEP 1. Players with soldiers in the target square Identity Check to see who was hit, with shooting player determining order of the Identity Check among the Players that have targeted Soldiers. (Skip this step if there is less than 4 possible Targets in the case of Grenades and Blast Check each Soldier 1 time.)
STEP 2. Blast Hit Check are made from the shooting players deck.
STEP 3. For each Hit achieved, the player and an opponent of his choice, with a soldier in the target square each make a Damage Check.
STEP 4. Apply both damage results to the identified target.
STEP 5. Repeat steps 2 - 4 for each additional Hit that was achieved, or until all targets are killed or destroyed.


JB, Step 1 should read " are 4 or fewer" instead of "is less than 4" since grenades affect up to 4 targets, right?
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Jeff Billings
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Perfect I will fix it.
 
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Jeff Billings
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Distance in Landmarks
Landmarks are multi-square locations that count as 2 Squares when counting Distance. This affects all SHOOT Actions except Toss Range, and LOOK Actions using Sight Range. It does not affect Actions such as Take Cover which only uses the Modifiers, Rally and Move Actions which use Distance. Line of Sight Checks are used in Take Cover, Shoot and Sight Actions which may cut across a square or Landmark and require the use of Modifiers as part of the Action. When Shooting into a square use the Modifiers normally and Distance by Square.
 
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John Di Ponio
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Jeff Billings wrote:
Grenades

STEP 3. For each Hit achieved, the player and an opponent of his choice, with a soldier in the target square each make a Damage Check.
STEP 4. Apply both damage results to the identified target.



What is the logic for pulling and applying 2 damage results? I can see possibly the greater damage of a grenade for for simplicity purposes, wouldn't one card suffice?
 
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Jeff Billings
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JohnnyD wrote:
Jeff Billings wrote:
Grenades
...


What is the logic for pulling and applying 2 damage results? I can see possibly the greater damage of a grenade for for simplicity purposes, wouldn't one card suffice?


The original Sergeants Design (version 1.0 of SMG) had the Blast Hit Checks coming from the Shooter's Deck. That allowed a player with Kills to use Grenades and Fight in concert to devastating effect. It balanced the game well because players could cross the map "At Risk" and when they got close change the High Risk to the other player. Because the Players of SMG said they did not like it I allowed the Rules committee to change the way it worked. The the Grenades were useless and ineffective. By allowing both players to pull Damage Checks for the Grenades and all other explosives, they "Really Matter" in play. No One can avoid risk by stacking there deck, and the rule plays pretty well.

I hope that explains why.
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Jeffery McCulloch
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JohnnyD wrote:
Jeff Billings wrote:
Grenades

STEP 3. For each Hit achieved, the player and an opponent of his choice, with a soldier in the target square each make a Damage Check.
STEP 4. Apply both damage results to the identified target.



What is the logic for pulling and applying 2 damage results? I can see possibly the greater damage of a grenade for for simplicity purposes, wouldn't one card suffice?


JB may answer differently, but I see it like this: A lot pf players base the "value" of their soldiers by the number of kill results they have. In the old rules, the fewer kills the better since you essentially drew your own damage. This, to me, is cheesy. So, having both players pull damage makes it more likely to include soldiers with kill damage in their decks. This only works for blast damage and Fights, though.
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Jeffery McCulloch
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Jeff Billings wrote:
JohnnyD wrote:
Jeff Billings wrote:
Grenades
...


What is the logic for pulling and applying 2 damage results? I can see possibly the greater damage of a grenade for for simplicity purposes, wouldn't one card suffice?


The original Sergeants Design (version 1.0 of SMG) had the Blast Hit Checks coming from the Shooter's Deck. That allowed a player with Kills to use Grenades and Fight in concert to devastating effect. It balanced the game well because players could cross the map "At Risk" and when they got close change the High Risk to the other player. Because the Players of SMG said they did not like it I allowed the Rules committee to change the way it worked. The the Grenades were useless and ineffective. By allowing both players to pull Damage Checks for the Grenades and all other explosives, they "Really Matter" in play. No One can avoid risk by stacking there deck, and the rule plays pretty well.

I hope that explains why.


The original rules as described seem a lot better. There is nothing worse than a crack sniper getting a hit and doing nothing, over and over and over again. The Rules Committee should have been sacked on the spot for wimping out. Perhaps all hits from Shooting should also include the dual-draw mechanic.
 
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Jeff Billings
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Grenades
During any SHOOT Action, Soldiers with grenade markers on their Soldiers Card may Toss one grenade. Tossing a grenade does not cause a Soldier to become spotted. The grenade can be Tossed at any Spotted Soldier within the thrower’s Toss Distance. Toss Distance is NOT affected by the SHOOT terrain modifiers. Grenades (as well as rockets, such as Panzerfausts, bazooka or PIAT rounds and Light Mortars) attack Units in only 1 physical square on the map, or an Urban Room in Urban Areas that is smaller than 4 Squares.
 
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Jeff Billings
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skippykaos wrote:
Jeff Billings wrote:
JohnnyD wrote:
[q="Jeff Billings"]Grenades
...

...


The original rules as described seem a lot better. There is nothing worse than a crack sniper getting a hit and doing nothing, over and over and over again. The Rules Committee should have been sacked on the spot for wimping out. Perhaps all hits from Shooting should also include the dual-draw mechanic.


That would break the play balance badly. It is actually one of the degenerative cases the game will actually collapse when you do that. The Balance is unreliable.
 
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Jeff Pseudonym
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I assume you are looking for input based on the title. Here goes.

I Don't like this line:
Jeff Billings wrote:
Grenades (as well as rockets, such as Panzerfausts, bazooka or PIAT rounds and Light Mortars) attack Units in only 1 physical square on the map...


If this Rule is for Grenades I don't think it needs to expand to other forms of Blasts. They should have there own section, even if it is a bit redundant. I should not have to look up a Light Mortar Blast in the Grenades section to find out it hits only one square. I would rather that be deleted and added in its own section and leave the Grenade Rule as only for grenades.

I would also change how the procedure is worded a bit.

Blast Check Procedure
Grenades pull up to 4 Blast Hit Checks per grenade – 1 for each target in a Square up to 4. Other Ordnance causes 1 or more Blast Hit Checks against all occupants of a Square.

STEP 1. A Blast Hit Check is made from the shooting players deck.
STEP 2. For each Hit achieved, the player and an opponent of his choice, with a soldier in the target square each make a Damage Check.
Note: When there are more than 4 soldiers on the targeted square players preform an Identity Check to see who was hit. The shooting player determines the order of the Identity Check among the Players that have Soldiers in targeted square.
STEP 3. Apply both damage results to the identified target.
STEP 4. Repeat steps 2 - 4 for each additional Hit that was achieved, or until all targets are killed or destroyed.

There should also be a notation about how Crews are handled in this situation. The first sentence after Blast Check Procedure says target which can lead to confusion as to whether a 3-man Crew is 1 target or 3 targets. If the later, I would change target to soldiers or make a notation that for the purpose of Blasts, crew members are individual targets.

In your (Skip this step if there is less than 4 possible Targets in the case of Grenades and Blast Check each Soldier 1 time.)"

Should that be "less than 5"...or maybe "4 or less"?

Lastly, after Grenades (or before) there should be a Blast section in the rules that is kind of like this:

"Blast weapons (and events) such as rockets (Panzerfausts, bazooka or PIAT rounds), Light Mortars, and Demolitions attack Units in only 1 physical square on the map or an Urban Room in Urban Areas unless specifically stated otherwise. These weapons do not have a target limit and one Blast Hit Check is made for every unit in the target square. The player doing the attacking pulls the Blast Hit Check against each unit and the unit's owner pulls the Damage Checks."

A couple of other notes:
I see Target, Unit, and Soldier used here. The wording should be more consistent. Soldier is probably fine. I assume SHOW rules will explain grenade use in squares with vehicles/armor.

There are a few grammatical errors (probably in mine too).

I'm doing this from memory so sorry if I misspoke on the rules or forgot something.

-Jeff M.



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Jeff Pseudonym
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skippykaos wrote:
The original rules as described seem a lot better. There is nothing worse than a crack sniper getting a hit and doing nothing, over and over and over again. The Rules Committee should have been sacked on the spot for wimping out. Perhaps all hits from Shooting should also include the dual-draw mechanic.


There is a VERY long thread about this here on the Geek. One main point people had was that why would you throw a grenade and get one check when you can most likely shoot them for 3 chances to win. The double damage kind of balances that out.

-Jeff M.
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Jeff Billings
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I can split a general case for Blast attacks and Grenades. I will draft that and put it up for comment in a bit. Thanks Hanomag
 
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Charlie Theel
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Are these changes OK for SMG too or is there something in D-Day that makes these work that's not in SMG? I'm asking because I really like the idea of grenades getting better.
 
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Jeff Billings
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Blast Hit Checks
Explosive ordnance causes Blast Checks to soldiers in a Square or Urban Room. In some cases special scenario instructions or events apply that can increase the area of effect to include an entire Landmark. Blast attacks are described on Vehicle Panels, Equipment Cards, Scenario Rules and Events. In all these cases the “#” x Blast Hit Checks is the number of times each Unit in the Square must take Blast Checks.
For example, 1 Soldier and 1 Crew are in a Square and are hit by a 3x Blast Hit Check attack from a medium mortar. The Soldier takes 3 Blast Checks and the Crew Takes 3 Blast Checks. Damage in the crew is applied using Identity Checks. In the case of the Crew this can cause soldiers to receive a Kill result or second Wound results and be removed as Soldiers able to take further damage. The dead do not soak off Damage in Sergeants.
Grenade Hit Check Procedure
Grenades pull up to 4 Blast Hit Checks per grenade – 1 for each Unit in a square. Pulling an Identity Check for a Crew member Hits the Crew with any remaining Hits up to the number of Crew members. For example, a 2 Man MG Crew that is hit would take a second hit if available.
STEP 1. Blast Hit Checks are made from the shooting players deck.
STEP 2. If the Hits achieved total less than the number of Units in a square then use the Identity Check procedure to see which Units are hit. If the Units in the Square belong to multiple players the shooting player chooses the order of the Identity Check taken by the opponents. Crew members and soldiers are Hit if their Dog Tag is pulled during an Identity Check.
STEP 3. For each Hit achieved, the shooting Soldier’s Player and an target Soldiers’s Player each make a Damage Check.
STEP 4. Apply both damage results to the identified target.
STEP 5. Repeat steps 2 - 4 for each additional Hit that was achieved, or until all targets are killed or destroyed.
 
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Jeff Billings
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charlest wrote:
Are these changes OK for SMG too or is there something in D-Day that makes these work that's not in SMG? I'm asking because I really like the idea of grenades getting better.


I agree.

Rob Belli will be handling the SMG rules. (He is actually in the next office working on the draft and helping me develop the Roster.) I will contribute to the discussion for SMG rules, but the players know the game in some regards better than me at this point.

Rob is close to starting this process for SMG. We will work to keep the rules very close to the same. X-Terrain in SMG will never be part of DDay. And the rules need maturing for X-Terrain, plus facing and some other important difference will have to be addressed. I hope you contribute.
 
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Jeff Billings
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Designer’s Note: The ability to Move multiple times in a Phase simulates the Soldier jogging, running and sprinting. Moving multiple times is different than Move+ and Move++. The Move+ and Move++ is about paying the movement cost of a square before leaving it.
 
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Peter
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This is great stuff Jeff Billings. Very helpful. What I might suggest is we craft examples to go with the rules, while we are at it. As the rule wording gets refined, so can the examples.
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Jeff Billings wrote:
Blast Hit Checks
Explosive ordnance causes Blast Checks to soldiers in a Square or Urban Room. In some cases special scenario instructions or events apply that can increase the area of effect to include an entire Landmark. Blast attacks are described on Vehicle Panels, Equipment Cards, Scenario Rules and Events. In all these cases the “#” x Blast Hit Checks is the number of times each Unit in the Square must take Blast Checks.
For example, 1 Soldier and 1 Crew are in a Square and are hit by a 3x Blast Hit Check attack from a medium mortar. The Soldier takes 3 Blast Checks and the Crew Takes 3 Blast Checks. Damage in the crew is applied using Identity Checks. In the case of the Crew this can cause soldiers to receive a Kill result or second Wound results and be removed as Soldiers able to take further damage. The dead do not soak off Damage in Sergeants.
Grenade Hit Check Procedure
Grenades pull up to 4 Blast Hit Checks per grenade – 1 for each Unit in a square. Pulling an Identity Check for a Crew member Hits the Crew with any remaining Hits up to the number of Crew members. For example, a 2 Man MG Crew that is hit would take a second hit if available.
STEP 1. Blast Hit Checks are made from the shooting players deck.
STEP 2. If the Hits achieved total less than the number of Units in a square then use the Identity Check procedure to see which Units are hit. If the Units in the Square belong to multiple players the shooting player chooses the order of the Identity Check taken by the opponents. Crew members and soldiers are Hit if their Dog Tag is pulled during an Identity Check.
STEP 3. For each Hit achieved, the shooting Soldier’s Player and an target Soldiers’s Player each make a Damage Check.
STEP 4. Apply both damage results to the identified target.
STEP 5. Repeat steps 2 - 4 for each additional Hit that was achieved, or until all targets are killed or destroyed.


EDIT: this wasn't right, per Jeff Billing's comment below, so rewriting it in another post.
Blast Check from Grenade example #1:
Martha and George are playing US forces. Franz and Gertrude are playing German forces. Franz has a SHOOT action and decides to toss a grenade into a square with five enemy soldiers. The US soldiers in the square are SGT Anderson and SGT Booth (both owned by Martha), and PVT Cummings, PVT Dakota, and PVT Ender (owned by George)

STEP 1. Since the square holds 5 soldiers, which is one more than the maximum of 4 hit checks, Franz makes 4 hit checks using the Blast Line. The first and second hit checks result in zero hits, the third check results in one hit, and the fourth results in one hit. The total number of hits is two.

STEP 2. Since the total number of hits is less than the number of Units in the square, the game uses identity checks to determine who is hit. Franz points at Martha (since she has the best soldiers) and says "Martha, please make an identity check". Martha draws a card and it is "Zappa," so no damage is done to her soldiers. The order is now set between Martha and George, so George makes a next identity check. George picks a card and it says "Ender," who is in the square, so Ender takes the first potential hit.

STEP 3. Check Ender. Ender's player (George) and the attacking player (Franz) each pull a damage check. George pulls a "wound" and Franz pulls a "pin".

STEP 4. The result is applied to Ender, who is now both wounded and pinned.

Now repeat 2-4 with the one remaining hit.

STEP 2. Next, Martha draws again, and the card is again "Zappa" so no damage is done to her soldiers. George draws again and it is again "Ender." Since Ender has already been potentially hit, he is not potentially hit twice. Martha draws again, and the card is "SGT Anderson," so Anderson is potentially hit.

STEP 3: Second potential hit is for Anderson. Anderson's player (Martha) and the attacking player (Franz) each pull a damage check. Martha pulls a "zip" and Franz pulls a "Kill".

STEP 4: Unfortunately for Anderson, he has been killed.

Since both potential hits have been resolved, the grenade attack is finished.


...

JB: is that correct about Ender not getting hit twice? Or does he suffer two times?
 
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Peter
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Blast Check from Grenade example #2:
Martha and George are playing US forces. Franz and Gertrude are playing German forces. Franz has a SHOOT action and decides to toss a grenade into a square with five enemy soldiers. The US soldiers in the square are SGT Anderson and SGT Booth (both owned by Martha), and PVT Cummings, PVT Dakota, and PVT Ender (owned by George)

STEP 1. Since the square holds 5 soldiers, which is one more than the maximum of 4 hit checks, Franz makes 4 hit checks using the Blast Line. The first and second hit checks result in zero hits, the third check results in THREE hits, and the fourth results in TWO hits. The total number of hits is FIVE.

...

JB: Okay what happens here? Do we keep cycling all five hits?

 
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Jeff Billings
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IMPORTANT:
When Fighting, the player draws cards from the Action Deck for the Combat Results and not the cards currently held in his hand from the Scenario Draw.
The Fight is not hand-to-hand it includes point blank firing where aiming accuracy is not really a factor. Hence, Fight in a square is also allowed through blocking terrain. However, taking a prisoner is a movement that requires the soldier to be crewed with the capturing soldier.
You cannot capture across a blocking (water or other) feature since the captured soldier cannot join the captor. This means you can Fight in all cases, but you cannot take prisoners in all cases
........

EDITED This is a rulebook change.
 
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Jeff Billings
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You alternate identity checks.

A = US Player 1 "Martha"
B = US Player 2 "George"
C = German Player 1 "Franz"
D = German Player 2 "Gertrude"

C tosses and gets 5 hits. C picks A to ID check first. Then B must ID Check. Then A... then B.

So the Check is a success check so the player draws until a Soldier in the Square comes up. That could be 1 card or 11 reshuffle and then drawing 3 more cards finally getting a match. If the same soldier comes up again later during a check the soldier is hit again and takes damage again. He cannot be hit if he is out of play, usually by being killed, but other ways are possible.

Does that help?
 
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Jeff Billings
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EXAMPLES?

I would appreciate that. I have a limit on page count so brevity in the rulebook will matter as webpages for the new website I can get as detailed as you would like.

I will accept help with the examples. Thank You.
 
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