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Subject: Space Camp in Tennin (Never Advance) rss

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Ulrik Bøe
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I've been waiting for this for a while: cheap archives defense for Tennin.

However, Space Camp can only advance cards that can be advanced, so it opens this for the runner: Run archives (Space Camp triggers). If the corp advances a card in the remote, it's almost certain that it's an agenda (at least in a Never Advance deck), and click 2 is grabbing the agenda.

Will Space Camp be a worthwhile splash in Tennin NA?
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It is not just good in archives, it protects HQ and r&D too.

At 1 inf I would say it is worth a try but with a three trash cost I would keep it in HQ as long as possible, not just dump it in archives.
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Ulrik Bøe
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But does it really protect anything? By advancing a facedown card in my remote, I eliminate a lot of possibilities for the runner - it's not Snare!, it's not Edge of World, it's not an upgrade (Caprice, Shell Corp) that's trying to bait a run. The point of Never Advance is that the runner should never know what card I installed in the remote until he actually accesses it or I score an agenda. Space Camp tells him too much.
 
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Bradley Galbraith
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Does Tennin Never Advance use the advancable ice + trick of light combo? If so, you could import the cheapest advanceable ice possible (Ice wall and... shadow?) and when they hit Space Camp put the advancements on your Ice instead. No giving away what is in your remote.
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Ulrik Bøe
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PaxCecilia wrote:
Does Tennin Never Advance use the advancable ice + trick of light combo? If so, you could import the cheapest advanceable ice possible (Ice wall and... shadow?) and when they hit Space Camp put the advancements on your Ice instead. No giving away what is in your remote.

It can, but it's not central to the deck (like it is in Tennin Lightning). The core part is that a facedown card in the remote could be a Nisei mkII, which means that the runner has to a) run it, b) expose it, c) deny the token or d) let it through. The next part is to make a) and c) expensive and risky (through taxing ice and traps) to force him to let a Nisei through.

The original thought was that Space Camp could prevent c) without spending resources on icing archives, but as it can only be used on cards that can be advanced it's almost an expose for the runner. (Of course SC can also prevent c) if the runner hits it in HQ or R&D.)
 
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Lluluien
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ulrik wrote:
I've been waiting for this for a while: cheap archives defense for Tennin.

However, Space Camp can only advance cards that can be advanced, so it opens this for the runner: Run archives (Space Camp triggers). If the corp advances a card in the remote, it's almost certain that it's an agenda (at least in a Never Advance deck), and click 2 is grabbing the agenda.

Will Space Camp be a worthwhile splash in Tennin NA?

You can take this for whatever value you want, but as the guy that made the original NBN deck and coined the phrase "Never Advance", this card is the card I've been most excited to see released in 3-4 months because I think it'll be the last thing my Tennin Never Advance deck needs to really work.

The deck already didn't do bad at the time: I took my Tennin deck to a small tournament last year and only lost one game w/ it where all I needed to do for like 10 @*$^ing turns was draw an agenda or Fast Track on my auto-draw to win it but never did (don't remember the exact circumstances; my clicks were tied up in some economy stalemate between me and the Runner and couldn't draw more cards).

I haven't really played since that tournament, but I opened up NetrunnerDB yesterday for the first time in months to start looking at what I want to do with this deck and possibly even go play on OCTGN for the first time in over a year, just because I'm excited about how well I think Space Camp is going to work in this deck.
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Lluluien
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PaxCecilia wrote:
Does Tennin Never Advance use the advancable ice + trick of light combo? If so, you could import the cheapest advanceable ice possible (Ice wall and... shadow?) and when they hit Space Camp put the advancements on your Ice instead. No giving away what is in your remote.

This is one of the biggest reasons I think it works. The Trick of Light isn't there for Fast Advance; it's there to score a 4/2 on a turn when the Runner didn't cooperate w/ you and ran one of your servers to keep you from getting your ID token. It's a hedge against the strategy not working. (Edit: That said, I put one Fast Track in my deck in order to use ToL to score the 2/2 Medical Breakthrough, and I win 30-50% of my games with this deck in that manner. Guess the moral of the story is don't give up your ToL to Fast Advance something that you could Never Advance if you don't have to. You need a ToL in your hand to make the Never Advance threat really work in this deck.)

You have a similar hedge if you're worried about what Ulrik mentioned regarding giving away information about the agenda you have installed if you put a Space Camp advancement on it while the Runner still has clicks left. You can put it on the ICE if you're worried that will induce a run that you don't want.

You can play that to your advantage too though. If it's an NAPD Contract in the remote, you probably WANT them running at the remote. Similarly, if you put a 3/# agenda in the remote (Philotic, 2nd Medical Breakthrough, Braintrust if you go that route - I don't for what that's worth - or any 3/1 you might include in the deck), you might draw attention away from a possible run on that agenda by sticking the Space Camp token on an ICE.
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Ulrik Bøe
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I like to play a version more focused on damage, so I don't use Medical Breakthrough. Trick of Light is in, sometimes - as you said, not for Fast Advance, but to score that 4/2 (Nisei!) if the runner denies a token instead of checking the remote. I should probably add more, but precious, precious deck space...

My version has done very well in the past, but in the last tournament it just barely got a single win - last pre-O&C tournament for us tomorrow, we'll see how it fares.

Do you think the space ice is worth the influence in the deck? They really get value from Tennin tokens, but 2 influence each...I'm currently using 9-12 influence on ice (tollbooths, elis and maybe pop ups), so they'd replace those (last 3 inf is Jackson).

By the way, good point about space camp: that you can use it on the agenda or not as you deem most appropriate.
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Kevin Ellenburg
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If you're looking to advance cards with Space Camp, you may want to consider An Offer You Can't Refuse (to be released in the Valley). I'm currently working on a deck (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1314254/deck-theorycrafting...) that uses it to try and cheese Fast Advance by getting runs on Archives during the corp's turn. If your deck is running a taxxing Archives or taxxing (but not run ending) ICE on your centrals then it could be worth including.

The card: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/android-netrun...
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Lluluien
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ulrik wrote:
I like to play a version more focused on damage, so I don't use Medical Breakthrough. Trick of Light is in, sometimes - as you said, not for Fast Advance, but to score that 4/2 (Nisei!) if the runner denies a token instead of checking the remote. I should probably add more, but precious, precious deck space...

My version has done very well in the past, but in the last tournament it just barely got a single win - last pre-O&C tournament for us tomorrow, we'll see how it fares.

Do you think the space ice is worth the influence in the deck? They really get value from Tennin tokens, but 2 influence each...I'm currently using 9-12 influence on ice (tollbooths, elis and maybe pop ups), so they'd replace those (last 3 inf is Jackson).

By the way, good point about space camp: that you can use it on the agenda or not as you deem most appropriate.

I'm currently running into the influence problem you've mentioned. There are a ton of ways to spend influence in this deck that are all pretty effective (Jackson, Space Camp, Eli, Ice Wall, Ash, Crisium Grid, constellation ICE, etc.) that there isn't much influence for the constellation ICE:

1) I think 3 Space Camps are required to make them effective enough for Archives dissuasion.

2) I think at least 2 Jacksons are required. I'm inclined to still use 3 because with 3 of them, I've always found 2 Caprice to be enough with the potential Jackson recursion. Jacksons are useful for more functions than Caprice is, so I'd rather have 3 & 2 of those instead of 2 & 3 of those, respectively.

3) Since I want to have a reasonably high amount of advanceable ICE to put counters on and I want to have some cheap binary ICE against Maxx to rush with, then taking 3 Ice Walls here solves lots of problems. It covers those 2 ICE requirements at the same time using only 2-3 slots instead of 4-6, and it also costs half the influence of the constellation ICE. I think the deck needs at least 2 of these and I signed up for 3 of them.

4) I love Eli in my deck (who doesn't love Eli?). If you're reading this and haven't ever tried putting an Inazuma in front of an Eli on a scoring remote, you might be pretty surprised what an cheap yet effective combination of gear check + taxation it sets up in order to get through; add Ash/Caprice for maximum Runner frustration. I'm hestitant to cut these, but I might end up deciding to just use Lotus Fields in the place of Inazumas and then ridding the deck of any Destroyer ICE. I don't think I'd miss Inazuma that much anymore, it makes my deck less prone to problems with having the ICE behind Inazuma killed by Parasites, and I think that against the Eater decks that the Destroyers won't be that useful for anything other than heavy taxation, and if my main choice for that is going to be the constellation destroyer, then I'm better off having the constellation barrier instead because they're the same cost to rez and the same cost to break for Eater. I see the barrier being better than the Sentry against non-Eater setups because of all the Clone Chip/SMC/Deja Vu/etc./etc. recursion, assuming I get the same taxation level out of it, because those will never have the same early-game problem of me having 3 counters on it but not stopping a Indexing/Account Siphon anyway (which is a problem with the constellation Sentry).

TL;DR on this point: I could see 0 to 3 Elis in the deck.

5) At this point, I'm ready to start making influence decisions about the space ICE. I can probably only realistically take 3-4 of them since they're 2 influence apiece, but that's what I'm going to do. These things are beastly if you can rez them with 2-3 advancements on them, which isn't that hard for Tennin to do since you need to have 2-4 advancements on the board at any given time to threaten the ToL agenda advancement hedge on a Nisei when you install in the remote if you want the Never Advance threat to work against opponents that know what they're doing.


My own deck choices for the influence are probably 3 Space Camp, 3 Jackson, 3 Ice Wall, 2 Asteroid Belt, and then possibly still 1 Nebula just because I don't want all of my advanceable ICE to be barriers. If someone plays me and I get the impression they think all the advanceable ICE are barriers, there's a reasonably good chance I can set them up to lose the game in 1 run with the Nebula if I time it right. Wormhole doesn't seem to be a good choice for me since Jinteki has several good code gate choices already and I'm not running much truly frightening subs anywhere in my ICE if I'm only running 1 Nebula.

If I wanted to try a different angle to get more constellation ICE into my deck, then I think I take out 3 Ice Walls and 1 Jackson, put in 1 more Nebula and 1 Wormhole, make sure Inazuma is in the deck, and consider including 1-2 Grims (which I used to run in my prior version).
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Marcel Heymuth
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As a long-time (and more or less successful) Tennin player,
I do not see myself adding Space Camp. That may have to do
with my specific deck (2x ICE Wall being the only advcanceable ICE),
but to me Space Camp is just a bad excuse to not protect Archives.
And that will lose you game after game. Criminals play Security Testing and Sneakdoor, new Anarchs play Retrieval Run and Archives Interface. Shapers might be the best matchup for that. But they will usually run R&D often enough such that Tennins ability doesn't trigger.
If anything, Space Camp might be good in early game, where Arhives might be
the only accessible central server and when the likelyhood of Sneakdoor/Security Testing/Retrieval Run/Archives Interface is the least. BUt then again, you will need advanceable ICE very early. So the window for Space Camp efficiency is a narrow one.
 
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Lluluien
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Ingbert wrote:
As a long-time (and more or less successful) Tennin player,
I do not see myself adding Space Camp. That may have to do
with my specific deck (2x ICE Wall being the only advcanceable ICE),
but to me Space Camp is just a bad excuse to not protect Archives.
And that will lose you game after game. Criminals play Security Testing and Sneakdoor, new Anarchs play Retrieval Run and Archives Interface. Shapers might be the best matchup for that. But they will usually run R&D often enough such that Tennins ability doesn't trigger.
If anything, Space Camp might be good in early game, where Arhives might be
the only accessible central server and when the likelyhood of Sneakdoor/Security Testing/Retrieval Run/Archives Interface is the least. BUt then again, you will need advanceable ICE very early. So the window for Space Camp efficiency is a narrow one.

Which version of Tennin are you playing; does that make a difference? Are you playing Never Advance, Fast Advance, flatline, etc.?

Curious if this makes a difference. To me, Space Camp has value in R&D (because there's a high probability in successive R&D attacks that the token I get from it will go towards making R&D harder to break into), value in my HQ (same as R&D w/ additional caveat that if they hit my HQ continuously, they will likely be inclined to pay to remove it so they don't hit it more than once), value in Archives (already been discussed)...

...and most importantly, value in a remote server, because I'm playing Never Advance. I have to have non-agenda stuff to put there too.

None of that of course guarantees it'll be worthwhile. I might end up deciding it's a waste of deck space, but I'm curious if the reason you find it unworthy of consideration is because you don't value it for any reason other than what it does in Archives. The biggest thing for me that it'll do is, if Archives is the only server they can cheaply break into to stop my ID ability, I still get to score a never-advanced 4/2. That assumes they can't easily break into my remote server, but that's what my deck is set up to do. If my remote server is strong enough either to keep them out or gut their economy, Space Camp in Archives makes my ID read "...unless the Runner made a successful run that turn on some server other than Archives." It's not necessarily there for efficiency as Archives protection so much as removing an attack vector for the Runner to efficiently undermine the basic premise of the deck.

That's why I ask: is your evaluation of Space Camp based on the same basic premise, or are you playing a different version of Tennin? If you are playing Never Advance, not only does your assessment of Space Camp matter more, but I'm actually interested in hearing more about your choice of only 2 Ice Walls as well, because I find the Trick of Light hedge against the Runner making an ID ability denial run on me when I install into my remote server absolutely essential to making the deck work (especially since a scored Nisei agenda in a close game often reads "Hosted Agenda Counter: Win the Game."), and I often manually advance Ice Walls to get the tokens to do this.
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Marcel Heymuth
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lluluien wrote:
Ingbert wrote:
As a long-time (and more or less successful) Tennin player,
I do not see myself adding Space Camp. That may have to do
with my specific deck (2x ICE Wall being the only advcanceable ICE),
but to me Space Camp is just a bad excuse to not protect Archives.
And that will lose you game after game. Criminals play Security Testing and Sneakdoor, new Anarchs play Retrieval Run and Archives Interface. Shapers might be the best matchup for that. But they will usually run R&D often enough such that Tennins ability doesn't trigger.
If anything, Space Camp might be good in early game, where Arhives might be
the only accessible central server and when the likelyhood of Sneakdoor/Security Testing/Retrieval Run/Archives Interface is the least. BUt then again, you will need advanceable ICE very early. So the window for Space Camp efficiency is a narrow one.

Which version of Tennin are you playing; does that make a difference? Are you playing Never Advance, Fast Advance, flatline, etc.?

Curious if this makes a difference. To me, Space Camp has value in R&D (because there's a high probability in successive R&D attacks that the token I get from it will go towards making R&D harder to break into), value in my HQ (same as R&D w/ additional caveat that if they hit my HQ continuously, they will likely be inclined to pay to remove it so they don't hit it more than once), value in Archives (already been discussed)...

...and most importantly, value in a remote server, because I'm playing Never Advance. I have to have non-agenda stuff to put there too.

None of that of course guarantees it'll be worthwhile. I might end up deciding it's a waste of deck space, but I'm curious if the reason you find it unworthy of consideration is because you don't value it for any reason other than what it does in Archives. The biggest thing for me that it'll do is, if Archives is the only server they can cheaply break into to stop my ID ability, I still get to score a never-advanced 4/2. That assumes they can't easily break into my remote server, but that's what my deck is set up to do. If my remote server is strong enough either to keep them out or gut their economy, Space Camp in Archives makes my ID read "...unless the Runner made a successful run that turn on some server other than Archives." It's not necessarily there for efficiency as Archives protection so much as removing an attack vector for the Runner to efficiently undermine the basic premise of the deck.

That's why I ask: is your evaluation of Space Camp based on the same basic premise, or are you playing a different version of Tennin? If you are playing Never Advance, not only does your assessment of Space Camp matter more, but I'm actually interested in hearing more about your choice of only 2 Ice Walls as well, because I find the Trick of Light hedge against the Runner making an ID ability denial run on me when I install into my remote server absolutely essential to making the deck work (especially since a scored Nisei agenda in a close game often reads "Hosted Agenda Counter: Win the Game."), and I often manually advance Ice Walls to get the tokens to do this.

I'm playing a usually fast advance Tennin. Usually, because in certain situations I get to build a nice scoring remote. More likely, though, I just ICE up centrals with all that taxing stuff (Pup, Eli, Inazuma+Archer/Rototurret), Yagura and Caprice as an Upgrade).
Starting in the mid game, usually, runners cannot afford to run every turn anymore. So I get a lot of tokens and then it's all about those Trick of Light.
 
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Ulrik Bøe
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I'm going to write a longer reply later, but for now, this: Tokens for Trick of Light seems such a waste of Tennin. It's a good backup plan, because it's an efficient way of gaining tokens, but on the other hand they do cost only a click and a credit with the right card. Why not just mix in Junebugs and Cerebral Overwriters in an IAA plan if all you want is tokens?

Getting that token on an unadvanced Nisei mkII...that's just on a different level.
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Lluluien
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ulrik wrote:
I'm going to write a longer reply later, but for now, this: Tokens for Trick of Light seems such a waste of Tennin. It's a good backup plan, because it's an efficient way of gaining tokens, but on the other hand they do cost only a click and a credit with the right card. Why not just mix in Junebugs and Cerebral Overwriters in an IAA plan if all you want is tokens?

Getting that token on an unadvanced Nisei mkII...that's just on a different level.

You would want Ronins and Neural EMP if you did this. Logic follows:

1) If there's an agenda that benefits from having an extra advancement being time-shifted to being gained on the Runners turn in the IAA plan, then Tennin is dangerous. As far as I know, Braintrust is the only Jinteki card that gains power from over-advancement though, and only from every 2 extras IIRC, so Tennin does nothing for the (current) agenda pool for the IAA plan.

2) If you as the Runner were already making the decision not to run a card that you think would wreck you because it was a trap, you damn sure wouldn't run it after ANOTHER counter was put on it. That makes this not very worthwhile for traps in my opinion.

3) What DOES benefit from time-shifting is a Ronin; having that advanced one more time prior to the Corp turn can put the Runner in a situation where the extra click the Corp picks up towards advancing the Ronin and trashing it gives them all the time they need to finish a death-stroke that was previously impossible. I think how successful you would be in a Tennin IAA flatline/trap deck vs just running that same deck in PE would hinge almost completely on using this to your advantage. Caveat emptor though; I don't play advanceable traps


All of that said, the FA version of Tennin worked at least once upon a time; IIRC kranse won a big tourney in Chicago with it, and I've always been under the impression Chicago was one of the big hotbeds for talented netrunning.
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Ulrik Bøe
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lluluien wrote:
All of that said, the FA version of Tennin worked at least once upon a time; IIRC kranse won a big tourney in Chicago with it, and I've always been under the impression Chicago was one of the big hotbeds for talented netrunning.

I know it works (..or at least worked). I'm just a bit lost why they needed the Tennin ID to make FA Jinteki? Is the efficiency of cheap tokens from the ID that good?
 
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Steven Tu
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ulrik wrote:
lluluien wrote:
All of that said, the FA version of Tennin worked at least once upon a time; IIRC kranse won a big tourney in Chicago with it, and I've always been under the impression Chicago was one of the big hotbeds for talented netrunning.

I know it works (..or at least worked). I'm just a bit lost why they needed the Tennin ID to make FA Jinteki? Is the efficiency of cheap tokens from the ID that good?

I've played that Lightning Tennin deck before. It's good because:
1. It allows Jinteki, who usually has poor stopping power but decent enough taxing ability, to build taxing centrals that allow it to score, and not have to spend on a stopping power remote.
2. A token is a click and a cred. It's two thirds of a standard corp turn, and is non trivial. A game fully won with TOL + identity means the identity has gained about 8 clicks and 8 creds. That's A LOT.
3. Runner can only run blind, playing off the RNG as opposed to targeted strikes. Through thick servers, unless multi-access.
4. Jinteki agendas are good for fast advance. As opposed to Weyland agendas.
 
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Ulrik Bøe
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I'm trying to rebuild my deck with constellation ice and ToL, and I see that it pushes out my traps (Snare! and Edge of World). I normally feel very good about my traps, it makes runners hesitant to run, but with ToL and going up to 12 econ cards deckspace is getting realllly tight. With Jackson and Space Camp eating six influence I also no longer have room for Tollbooth. Currently it looks like the deck will be Caprice, ToL, Jackson, Space camp + econ (12), agendas (9) and ice (17, including 3 constellation).

llulien, do you use Tollbooth in your decks? I still think it's one of the premier taxing ice and usually include 2 or 3, but they'll have to go if I include constellation ice.

But I do like net damage. It does three things: 1) tax the runner (he has to spend more resources on draw), 2) make him play cautiously and 3) gives me a backup win condition. I'd add back Edge of World and Snare!, and maybe use Wormhole + Neural Katana. NK is still great against face checking, and a str7 code gate that does 3 net damage has some real bite. Will it be enough to overcome that NK is so binary? (ie cheap to get through with breakers.)
 
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Ulrik Bøe
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Tuism wrote:
ulrik wrote:
Is the efficiency of cheap tokens from the ID that good?
2. A token is a click and a cred. It's two thirds of a standard corp turn, and is non trivial. A game fully won with TOL + identity means the identity has gained about 8 clicks and 8 creds. That's A LOT.

So it is the efficiency. And put like that, I agree - 8 clicks and creds is worth the ID. That's better than Ending the Fun.
 
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Bryan Blumklotz
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Here was my first effort with adding Space Camp...

Tennin NA 22.01

Tennin Institute: The Secrets Within (Honor and Profit)

Agenda (11)
3x Fetal AI (Trace Amount)
1x Hades Fragment (Up and Over)
3x House of Knives (Honor and Profit)
3x Nisei MK II (Core Set)
1x Philotic Entanglement (Honor and Profit)

Asset (11)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) •••
2x Melange Mining Corp. (Core Set)
3x Snare! (Core Set)
3x Space Camp (Order and Chaos) •••

Upgrade (2)
2x Caprice Nisei (Double Time)

Operation (8)
3x Celebrity Gift (Opening Moves)
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
2x Medical Research Fundraiser (Honor and Profit)

Barrier (3)
3x Eli 1.0 (Future Proof) •••

Code Gate (5)
3x Inazuma (Honor and Profit)
2x Tollbooth (Core Set) ••••

Sentry (9)
2x Mamba (Up and Over)
2x Pup (Honor and Profit)
2x Susanoo-No-Mikoto (Honor and Profit)
1x Swordsman (Second Thoughts)
2x Tsurugi (True Colors)

13 influence spent (max 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Order and Chaos

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.

Having read this thread I may go back to the drawing board with ICE and put TOL back in.

A few notes, Hades Fragment is my way of getting a third House of Knives in and since Tennin has a decent chance of scoring this out it would act as an interesting buffer to Eater/Keyhole. Being able to recover a card per turn is not to be underestimated.

Speaking of which, Eater is the reason I put Swordsman back in the mix. I really want 2 because of MaxX decks packing things like Keyhole, Wonton Destruction, Account Siphon, etc. In concert with Caprice you can put a monkey wrench in MaxX's all out assault.

Optionally you could ditch the Caprices and go with Crisium Grid (there is 2 influence not used right now).

You all have given me some good food for thought, it has been too long since I have built a Never Advance deck (White Tree Jinteki I just can't quit you...).

As a side note, if you are facing MaxX deck running Eater, leave archives bare of any ICE, you want them to fire off the Space Camps and they cannot avoid access if there are no subs to break (Troll is an interesting card for this, since it has no subs to break and if you are flush will cost them credits on trace or a click to access).

Also, Hades Shard will force you to defensively pop Jackson Howard anytime you get 4+ AP or a winning amount of it in Archives. This can play havoc on Caprice and Snare! recursion.

Hey Lluluien! Long time no see...

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Ulrik Bøe
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Hades Fragment is a nice inclusion - I'll definetly use that in net damage versions. Not only can I rescue agendas from Eater or Noise, I can also put back snares and giraffes, and then Jackson to shuffle the deck, letting him effectively recycle more than the usual three cards.

I notice you don't use Edge of World, any thoughts on that? It doesn't often hit, but I've sometimes actually flatlined people with it (they foolishly trusted Deus X to keep them safe).

Any thoughts on Shell Corporation? In theory it should be very good in NA - an economy card that can also bait runs AND does not prevent you playing further cards in the server (like Melange does). However, recently I've lost quite often because the runners reach the end game (all rigged up), and my deck can't tax them quite enough. SC feels a bit too slow.

It may be just a play issue. I should probably be more aggressive with just IAA an agenda if I see the runner holding back and building.
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Bryan Blumklotz
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Thanks for the feedback. The deck I posted has been modified to take in account the ICE discussion of this thread.

Hades Fragment:
This is risk vs. reward play. It would be safer to put The Future Perfect in to get the extra House Of Knives. You have already talked about the upside of scoring Hades.

Edge Of The World:
It's a great card. But, something has to give in order to put Space Camp into the deck. Do I let go of Econ? Do I reduce my number of Snares!? Do I drop the amount of ICE?
If I were defending something like Shell Corporation in my remote the I could see putting it in because now the have motivation to run my server. The only thing it does is bring the pain at match point or for a really aggressive runner with no fear.

Shell Corporation:
I agree it is too slow. Unless you can set up an early remote and get it going early, it just doesn't really help you. Giving up other Econ to include it just slows you down.

I will post up my updated deck when I get a chance to play test it.

 
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Greg Agee
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I thought I'd throw in my two cents regarding Space Camp ...

I stumbled onto this thread last week heading into my Store Champs. Considering that I won this store's tournament last spring with an NBN Never Advance deck inspired by Lluluien's, I felt very comfortable with the strategy, and Lluluien extolling the virtues of Space Camp piqued my interest.

I had previously been practicing with a Tennin "Lightning" Fast Advance variant. However, I felt like the deck played a little passively for my tastes, content to sit and wait for the Tricks of Light and agendas. I'd usually end the game with 15 or so cards in R&D. So, I yanked out some of that deck's staples (Tyrant and Commercialization from the Worlds Top 16 build), switched up the agendas, and reworked it into the following Never Advance variant:

Tennin Institute: The Secrets Within (Honor and Profit)

Agenda (11)
2x Clone Retirement (Second Thoughts)
3x Medical Breakthrough (Honor and Profit)
3x NAPD Contract (Double Time)
3x Nisei MK II (Core Set)

Asset (6)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) •••
3x Space Camp (Order and Chaos) •••

Upgrade (4)
2x Caprice Nisei (Double Time)
2x Crisium Grid (First Contact) ••

Operation (11)
3x Celebrity Gift (Opening Moves)
2x Fast Track (Honor and Profit)
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
3x Trick of Light (Trace Amount)

Barrier (4)
1x Asteroid Belt (Order and Chaos) ••
3x Ice Wall (Core Set) •••

Code Gate (6)
3x Lotus Field (Upstalk)
3x Quandary (Double Time)

Sentry (6)
1x Nebula (Order and Chaos) ••
3x Pup (Honor and Profit)
2x Tsurugi (True Colors)

Other (1)
1x Chimera (Cyber Exodus)

15 influence spent (max 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Order and Chaos

In 5 rounds of swiss, the deck went 4-1. I beat Andy, Edward Kim, Stealth Nasir, and PPVP Kate. I lost to Leela, whose ability messed with my advanceable ICE. However, I misplayed the game a bit ... showing an agenda with Celebrity Gift in a gamble that he didn't have a decoder and Legwork. He did, and he snagged it for the win. I probably could have drawn more aggressively in that game, too. My scoring server was setup nicely, but I kind of sat back and waited.

Speaking to Space Camp specifically, I found it even more useful than I thought I would. It helped to kickstart agendas I knew they couldn't get to this turn, it loaded up Ice Walls, and in one profitable Archives run it even netted me a free space ICE with three advancement tokens. It certainly stopped my opponent from spamming Archives runs to turn off my ability, without needing to overprotect the server with a few ICE.

It also clogged up R&D with assets they never wanted to pay to trash, and doubled as run bait in the remote before I actually went for the score. All in all, I was quite pleased with its inclusion. Thanks to Lluluien for the good advice.
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Lluluien
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Hi guys,

Sorry I hadn't gotten back to the thread yet; I'd intended to do some testing this past weekend but ended up spending all my free time playing League w/ my brother when I was online and Eldritch Horror w/ my friends when I was in meatspace.

I wanted to respond to a few things here anyway though, so more posts to follow.

First though: Good to see you again, Saracenus!
 
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Lluluien
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ulrik wrote:
lluluien, do you use Tollbooth in your decks? I still think it's one of the premier taxing ice and usually include 2 or 3, but they'll have to go if I include constellation ice.

I did used to use this in my previous version. I came up with the same conclusion as you though - that's what has to get cut if I want to try constellation ICE.

Fortunately, Lotus Field is a good alternative to make sure you still have some significant nuisance for the Runner in the form of a code gate.
 
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