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Subject: Space Camp in Tennin (Never Advance) rss

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Lluluien
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ulrik wrote:
But I do like net damage. It does three things: 1) tax the runner (he has to spend more resources on draw), 2) make him play cautiously and 3) gives me a backup win condition. I'd add back Edge of World and Snare!, and maybe use Wormhole + Neural Katana. NK is still great against face checking, and a str7 code gate that does 3 net damage has some real bite. Will it be enough to overcome that NK is so binary? (ie cheap to get through with breakers.)

I've never tried a net damage version of this deck, but I do agree w/ you on the first two of these points, so I'm kind of interested to try it.

I agree w/ you on the third point (the backup win condition), too, with the qualification that I think you have to have enough support for it to make it more reliable than having a Runner happen onto a Snare at the wrong time.

The problem I always ran into with that is I didn't have deck space for it. Tennin NA has more deck space problems than NBN NA did, I think, because fewer cards can do double-duty. The best example I have to justify this statement is Marked Accounts & PAD Campaign. Those both served as economy, taxation, and NA "trap" assets (trap in the sense that the Runner wasted their resources running the remote to see an unrezzed one). You don't have the same economy option in Tennin NA using those because you can't uninstall them unprotected without letting the Runner turn your ID off whenever he wants cheaply. Same problem with SanSan vs Trick of Light.

Because of that, Snare! was one of the first things that I wanted to include in my Tennin NA deck that got subsequently cut. I didn't have the same win conditions in this deck vs my NBN deck - don't have tags for Private Security Force other than Snare (which isn't good enough on its own - I think the tagging sub-strategy is the most oft-misunderstood part of my NBN deck based on people's Private Security Force hate) and don't have deckspace to include Edge of World.

That said though, going back to the idea of the double-duty cards, House of Knives is a great include for this deck. Easy to score in-theme, good follow-up for Snare kills, good taxation for supporting the NA strategy (especially when supporting runs vs Caprice and/or Nisei agenda tokens), and with the lower points scored, makes a good sacrificial agenda if necessary to induce a run.

Even with that though I wasn't sure I liked the damage version of the deck until I saw one of the ICE Saracenus included in his deck: Mamba. Now that's an interesting little bugger. I feel like sentries are a very weak link in my Tennin NA deck because I'm NOT interested in net damage, but this guy's power counter can threaten a finishing blow from net damage the same way my NBN deck can threaten a finishing blow with a Data Raven (but not from the power counter in the Data Raven case; from tag-stacking).

Now all of a sudden I'm convinced there might be critical mass for a damage version of this deck. If we string together Snare, House of Knives, and Mamba for a net damage Tennin NA deck, then we have further motivation to use Nebula and/or Wormhole as well, which gives what I feel to be a better version of the Space Camp + constellation ICE includes that I would like to do.

In my Tennin NA (Medical Breakthrough / ETR+Caprice+Nisei), Nebula and Wormhole aren't really that scary without other net damage in the deck. Fortunately the Runner doesn't necessarily know that I don't use Snare and such, but I've always thought that was a relatively weak leg to stand on versus strong Runners (which are the ones you want to beat - any reasonable deck can beat a mediocre Runner). In my deck, I'd really prefer Astroid Belt, but if all my advanceable ICE are Barriers and the Runner figures it out, then any piece of ICE I have with advancements now isn't threatening. My stock answer to that would be "well now I can use my Tennin ID to trick them into thinking one of my sentries is a barrier", but that's weak justification if my sentries suck.

If you do the net damage version of this deck, that "sentries suck" thing goes out the window. Mamba power counters are very dangerous if you have House of Knives counters and Snare in your deck. Nebula and Wormhole + Neural Katana or Wormhole + Nebula are really dangerous with Mamba/House of Knives/Snare backup too. Having Nebula/Wormhole be a significant threat makes Ice Wall better, because where the Runner can be non-chalant about face-checking my unrezzed+advanced ICE, they have to be wary about all unrezzed + 3-advanced ICE in the net damage version because they don't know if they're barriers or not.


Coming full circle on this though: even though net damage makes the biggest weakness of my non-damage version of the deck much better (sentry ICE), the question is whether or not there is enough deck space to really pull it off. Going to have to add this to my list of things I'd like to test though!
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Lluluien
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eegag wrote:
I thought I'd throw in my two cents regarding Space Camp ...

I stumbled onto this thread last week heading into my Store Champs. Considering that I won this store's tournament last spring with an NBN Never Advance deck inspired by Lluluien's, I felt very comfortable with the strategy, and Lluluien extolling the virtues of Space Camp piqued my interest.

I had previously been practicing with a Tennin "Lightning" Fast Advance variant. However, I felt like the deck played a little passively for my tastes, content to sit and wait for the Tricks of Light and agendas. I'd usually end the game with 15 or so cards in R&D. So, I yanked out some of that deck's staples (Tyrant and Commercialization from the Worlds Top 16 build), switched up the agendas, and reworked it into the following Never Advance variant:

Tennin Institute: The Secrets Within (Honor and Profit) --decklist--

In 5 rounds of swiss, the deck went 4-1. I beat Andy, Edward Kim, Stealth Nasir, and PPVP Kate. I lost to Leela, whose ability messed with my advanceable ICE. However, I misplayed the game a bit ... showing an agenda with Celebrity Gift in a gamble that he didn't have a decoder and Legwork. He did, and he snagged it for the win. I probably could have drawn more aggressively in that game, too. My scoring server was setup nicely, but I kind of sat back and waited.

Speaking to Space Camp specifically, I found it even more useful than I thought I would. It helped to kickstart agendas I knew they couldn't get to this turn, it loaded up Ice Walls, and in one profitable Archives run it even netted me a free space ICE with three advancement tokens. It certainly stopped my opponent from spamming Archives runs to turn off my ability, without needing to overprotect the server with a few ICE.

It also clogged up R&D with assets they never wanted to pay to trash, and doubled as run bait in the remote before I actually went for the score. All in all, I was quite pleased with its inclusion. Thanks to Lluluien for the good advice.


Thanks for sharing an updated list + testing with us, Eegag, and nice work at the tournament - glad to hear that Space Camp worked out for you!

I particularly like your ICE choices for your version of the deck; you arrived at very similar decisions on the ICE that I did. Your only choice here that I don't like is Tsurugi - I've often found this thing to be pretty expensive for what it does for me (which is often "die to Parasite").

On the other hand, back to my previous post, sentry is a horrible slot for me, so I often end up with 1-2 of these in my deck anyway, just like you have, as much as I'd rather they were something else.
 
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Ulrik Bøe
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I like your thoughts about Mamba. I've tried it, but I found that it did too little for the cost - unless I paid for the psi game. The runner would simply take 1 net, and then bid 0. I often did not want to pay to get that Mamba token, but maybe I should. If I don't use the tokens properly, Mamba is very cheap to just pass - 2 net damage. By comparison, Tsurugi costs 4 creds (best case!) and Komainu something like that. But, of course, Parasite.

It's a bit like Snare! - you need the econ to support paying those 4 creds when the runner hits. I think I might try it again (I've used HoK for quie a while), maybe with as much as 12 econ events (or Melange - I can never decide if Melange is worth it or not, as you can't threaten an NA score as long as it's out).

Deck space is, as always, at a premium. 11 agendas (Fetal is a nice third 2 pointer), 12 econ, 17 ice leaves 9 more slots - a mix of Jackson, Space Camp, ToL and Snare!? Could go 11 econ and 16 ice, and squeeze in 3 of each except for ToL (2). I feel that 2 ToL is defensible as it's a backup and a threat, not the primary way of scoring. Trick out a single Nisei mkII and the runner is encouraged to not leave face down cards in the remote even if he stops the ID power.
 
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Lluluien
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ulrik wrote:
It's a bit like Snare! - you need the econ to support paying those 4 creds when the runner hits. I think I might try it again (I've used HoK for quie a while), maybe with as much as 12 econ events (or Melange - I can never decide if Melange is worth it or not, as you can't threaten an NA score as long as it's out).

I like Melange myself. Especially if the current FotM is an Eater + Keyhole metagame where it doesn't matter if the trash cost is 1.

I find one of the problems with playing Never Advance now (keeping in mind I've played maybe 3-4 games in as many months, so "now" is a little dated for me) vs two years ago is actually that the Runner metagame has moved almost all-in on smashing central servers to the extent that they don't ever want to run remote servers. (That still seems to be the case based on current Maxx/Eater/Keyhole craze I see in A:NR forums everywhere.)

If that's the case, Melange does one of two things for you:

1) Forces a run that the Runner didn't want to do, so that you can waste their time/money/shenanigans cards, or

2) Let's you take as much money as you need to get your central servers built up so that the run-only-centrals strategy is harder to pull off.

Either of these are good for me.
 
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Ulrik Bøe
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2 is a good point. Hadn't really considered that part, I mostly feel like I'm going too slow if Melange sits in the remote. Going to test that.

Random thought: You build a deck to beat good runners, no doubt. But, given two equal decks, would one be considered to have an edge if it's also strong against weak runners? In a tournament it's always nice to minimize luck, and net damage is strong against inexperienced runners...
 
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Lluluien
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ulrik wrote:
Random thought: You build a deck to beat good runners, no doubt. But, given two equal decks, would one be considered to have an edge if it's also strong against weak runners? In a tournament it's always nice to minimize luck, and net damage is strong against inexperienced runners...

An edge is an edge I think; even if the only edge one deck has over another is a few % higher chance of beating people that you would mostly beat anyway, that still makes it the better deck, I think. If you genuinely aren't losing power in some other place to pick up that edge against weaker Runners, then the one with that edge is the better deck, I think.

There's an old adage where I'm from that "Even a blind squirrel gets a nut every now and then." With regards to what you're saying about weaker Runners versus net damage, there's no chance for the weak Runner to get lucky like that squirrel if you murder him first
 
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Ulrik Bøe
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Going to test this deck:

Tennin NA Star Mamba

Tennin Institute: The Secrets Within (Honor and Profit)

Agenda (11)
3x Fetal AI (Trace Amount)
2x House of Knives (Honor and Profit)
3x NAPD Contract (Double Time)
3x Nisei MK II (Core Set)

Asset (11)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) •••
2x Melange Mining Corp. (Core Set)
3x Snare! (Core Set)
3x Space Camp (Order and Chaos) •••

Operation (11)
3x Celebrity Gift (Opening Moves)
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
3x Medical Research Fundraiser (Honor and Profit)
2x Trick of Light (Trace Amount)

Barrier (3)
2x Asteroid Belt (Order and Chaos) ••••
1x Eli 1.0 (Future Proof)

Code Gate (4)
3x Lotus Field (Upstalk)
1x Wormhole (Order and Chaos) ••

Sentry (9)
3x Mamba (Up and Over)
1x Nebula (Order and Chaos) ••
1x Neural Katana (Core Set)
3x Pup (Honor and Profit)
1x Swordsman (Second Thoughts)

15 influence spent (max 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Order and Chaos

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.

Feels weird to drop down to only a single Eli, but the space ice do eat up influence.
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Bryan Blumklotz
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Ulrik,

I like your deck, super clean and efficient. I have some ice questions and perhaps a few suggestions.

What is your thinking on Neural Katana? Has this been worth the 4 credits when rezzed? My experience is that other sentries can tax better. It's rare I can kill or force a kill with it.

Nebula. I think you would be better off putting an Orion in there (get rid of the last Eli and put a couple of Enigmas in as hardly anyone is playing Yog right now). This gives you program destruction and another use other ice sub plus it's Etr. If you need a quick low influence program killer get Roto Turret. Too much pours ice and you will have games like I did were criminal runners hit my severs with no programs out.

I would swap out Wormhole for 2 Ice Wall.

Pups. Taxing but super porous. Aside from taxing the runner 2 credits how is this keeping the runner from denying you your Tennin advance token.

I think this deck archetype needs more binary ice with a few choice bits (Mamba for example) that don't stop the runner but tax or kill them.

Let us know how it plays...
 
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Greg Agee
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lluluien wrote:
Thanks for sharing an updated list + testing with us, Eegag, and nice work at the tournament - glad to hear that Space Camp worked out for you!

I particularly like your ICE choices for your version of the deck; you arrived at very similar decisions on the ICE that I did. Your only choice here that I don't like is Tsurugi - I've often found this thing to be pretty expensive for what it does for me (which is often "die to Parasite").

On the other hand, back to my previous post, sentry is a horrible slot for me, so I often end up with 1-2 of these in my deck anyway, just like you have, as much as I'd rather they were something else.

Yeah, while I agree and wish we had a better option than Tsurugi, I think it's habit of dying to Parasite can be a little overstated in this deck, specifically. Here's why:

Any early game ICE combination of Quandry and Pup will likely leave you with a couple of advancement counters on one or the other. Not ideal targets, but sometimes the only targets you have. In that case, the tokens and threat of Trick of Light bump these two innocuous ICE up the priority chain. They tend to eat up Parasites which might otherwise get used on Tsurugi straight away.

It's a taxing ETR sentry even once Mimic or Femme hits the table. And, I feel like it's weakness to Parasite gets mitigated slightly in this particular deck. Still, you're right: it is expensive for such low strength. I'm certainly open to alternative suggestions
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Ulrik Bøe
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Neural Katana is an experiment. It's a brutal first turn ice (tsurugi has won me games on the first turn, and rezzing Katana is half the price). The thinking of one copy is that it's great early and gives Wormhole teeth late, but it's not taxing at all by itself.

Which leads me to Pup. I like taxing ice all the way. Better to make the runner pay to deny tokens than to have my ice turned off ny a corroder, or only get tokens when he lacks breakers - the central idea of NA is, after all, that the runner may get in once, but not every time.

Pup costs 1 to rez and 2 to pass. That's excellent.

eegag wrote:
It's a taxing ETR sentry even once Mimic or Femme hits the table. And, I feel like it's weakness to Parasite gets mitigated slightly in this particular deck.

This is why I really like Tsurugi, but parasite is a concern, so in my deck above I'm going to test without.
 
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Ulrik Bøe
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On Orion: Is it really worth four influence? Maybe in a heavy etr deck, but when using taxing ice I rarely get the cheap early tokens (instead preferring to make the runner pay extra later). And Orion has to hit the table early to get those tokens.

Using Trick of Light to move tokens from a rezzed constellation ice to an unrezzed one: niche and situational, or a total waste of Trick?
 
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Bryan Blumklotz
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ulrik wrote:
On Orion: Is it really worth four influence?
It's only three and it does the work of both Nebula and Wormhole plus it has ETR. Knight cannot break it (8 STR) without help. Sure any breaker will break it but it will tax with 8 STR and 3 subs.

ulrik wrote:
Maybe in a heavy etr deck, but when using taxing ice I rarely get the cheap early tokens (instead preferring to make the runner pay extra later). And Orion has to hit the table early to get those tokens.
Even in a porous taxing deck you need something to stop the run. Between Space Camp and Tennin's Ability you can keep the cost down on it. I certainly wouldn't blink twice before double advancing it to make it either a rez threat or ToL material to get a 4/2 agenda out.

ulrik wrote:
Using Trick of Light to move tokens from a rezzed constellation ice to an unrezzed one: niche and situational, or a total waste of Trick?
It would have to be a specific corner case before I would waste ToL on moving advancement counters from one ICE to Another...

 
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Bryan Blumklotz
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So I finally got to put my deck into action. Work like a charm. As predicted Hades Shard is a bold but dangerous play. I think it is too much with Philotic also in the mix. So, here was the deck I took out...

Tennin NA 22.02

Tennin Institute: The Secrets Within (Honor and Profit)

Agenda (11)
3x Fetal AI (Trace Amount)
1x Hades Fragment (Up and Over)
3x House of Knives (Honor and Profit)
3x Nisei MK II (Core)
1x Philotic Entanglement (Honor and Profit)

Asset (10)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) ···
1x Melange Mining Corp. (Core)
3x Snare! (Core)
3x Space Camp (Order and Chaos) ···

Upgrade (2)
2x Caprice Nisei (Double Time)

Operation (9)
3x Celebrity Gift (Opening Moves)
3x Hedge Fund (Core)
2x Medical Research Fundraiser (Honor and Profit)
1x Trick of Light (Trace Amount)

Barrier (4)
2x Asteroid Belt (Order and Chaos) ····
2x Ice Wall (Core) ··

Code Gate (6)
2x Enigma (Core)
2x Inazuma (Honor and Profit)
2x Lotus Field (Upstalk)

Multi (1)
1x Orion (Order and Chaos) ···

Sentry (6)
1x Komainu (Honor and Profit)
2x Mamba (Up and Over)
1x Susanoo-No-Mikoto (Honor and Profit)
2x Swordsman (Second Thoughts)

Cards in deck: 49 (min 45)
15/15 influence used
Agenda Points: 20
Cards up to Order and Chaos

Deck built with Net Deck.

So, I am putting in Future Perfect and rejiggering some of my ICE. I really love the power of Inazuma to bring the pain.

Play of the night was killing my opponent with House Of Knives and Mamba, that was awesome.
 
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Ulrik Bøe
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I'm not doing too well with my deck. I win maaaybe half my games, but I've churned through a few different ice setups as well.

- I'm not thrilled by Mamba. It might be psychological - I've yet to see a single token on Mamba, which means the runner is avoiding or breaking it. It might be better than I feel it is, so it stays in for now.

- Tsurugi is doing good, even though it's vulnerable to parasite. I've met a few Hivemind decks which really don't care how big your ice is, parasite kills it anyway. It might be that.

- I threw Rainbow in, but Gordian Blade kills it (it's pointless to put Rainbow on a server with Lotus Field vs Gordian). Threw it out again.

- Asteroid Belt is awesome. Ice Wall is meh - considering going to 2x Belt, 1x Wormhole, 1x Orion

- Lotus Field is good.

- Singleton swordsman has won me one or two games and been useless in others, but I think it's worth it as a one-off. Lots of AI.

- Going to test various small ice - I don't want too many, but need a few. Ice Wall eats precious influence, Pup is decent but runners often pay to pass it. Rainbow dies to Gordian. With less Yog, Enigma or Datapike is an option. Himitsu-Baku is too cheap vs corroder - Wall of Static or Bastion?

I like 1x ToL and 2x Caprice. Might try that. And 9 econ cards is enough to fuel everything?
 
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Bryan Blumklotz
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Ulrik,

Here is my ideal ICE play...

Top: Inazuma
Middle: Pain Card (Mamba, Swordsman, etc)
Bottom: ETR (Ice Wall, Asteroid Belt, Enigma, Lotus, etc.)

I will usually rez the ETR early before anything gets put out. I then layer in a pain card and finally cap it with Inazuma when possible. I usually don't rez the pain card right away, I am waiting for an opportunity to maximize it's impact plus I always want a minimum of 4 credits to turn on my Snare!.

As soon as they can break my bottom card reliably I rez Inazuma. Now they have to pay the Inazuma toll in order to break my ETR which is 6 credits - STR of Breaker.

In the case of a server with Inazuma + Mamba + Ice Wall I am paying 4 credits to make someone with Corroder out pay 7 credits a run to come through my server. Each time I advance my ICE wall beyond the first, add a credit to the toll. It cost my opponent last night 9 credits to run my HQ.

There is a psychological piece at play here now. I am taxing the hell out of them but I have this unknown card that might hit them when they are vulnerable. Or am I not rezzing it because I have Snare! waiting for them at the end of their run? This before I start putting Caprice in a server.

Econ... I only felt the pinch late in my game. I finally got to my Jackson Howards and was able to cycle my econ back in. If I can find a way, I might put a second MMC in.

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Ulrik Bøe
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Interesting use of Inazuma. I've never been a fan of it, but as I haven't been using much hard etr in the deck I'm starting to see why - much of the ice I've been using has been selected for total cost to pass, and a breaker isn't necessarily required (Pup, Eli). I'm going to try an ice mix more like yours.

Having said that, is Inazuma into Mamba a good play? I would expect most runners to just bite it and let Mamba fire. This is good for getting Mamba tokens, but bad for taxing the runner: Inazuma->Mamba->Ice Wall ends up doing 2 net damage and 1 credit or so to pass. Of course, that's probably why you can flatline people with Mamba+HoK tokens...

I haven't tested more Tennin for a few days now. I'm playing with Titan NA, to really get the most out of the SpIce. I'll post something about that soon...
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Bryan Blumklotz
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ulrik wrote:
Having said that, is Inazuma into Mamba a good play? I would expect most runners to just bite it and let Mamba fire. This is good for getting Mamba tokens, but bad for taxing the runner: Inazuma->Mamba->Ice Wall ends up doing 2 net damage and 1 credit or so to pass. Of course, that's probably why you can flatline people with Mamba+HoK tokens...

It depends on the game state. Do they have a full breaker suit out? Do I have enough credits to rez mamba and still fire a Snare!? Do they have some way to mitigate net damage installed (i.e. Feedback Filter, Net Shield, and Deus X)?

If they are willing run through Inazuma and take net damage and potentially put a(nother) toke on Mamba, sure! At that point they are just a couple runs from death. With 2 Mamba tokens and House of Knives with a least 1 token; hitting a Snare! is game over. If they give me 3 Mamba tokens in the same conditions then hitting a Fetal will kill them.

3 Mamba tokens is a really bad thing. If they have 3 agendas scored and I score Philotic Entanglement, welp, good game.

Kills are not my primary purpose of this deck but the very real threat of one makes the Runner either slow down or die. If they slow down, I can score out some agendas in quick order. Hesitation = death with our builds.

But, this is all theory crafting. We need to get to some practical realities with our decks. My meta is probably different than yours. I am going to pick a couple of decks that run in my meta and talk about how it interacts with our assumptions and talk about how to mitigate some of the weaknesses in our deck builds and show you where we are strong.
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Bryan Blumklotz
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So, this deck is a thing here in Portland, Or.

Kyle piloted this beast to a Store Championship win and is a fearsome opponent.

Stealth Andy Deck- Forever Knight Games WA

Andromeda: Dispossessed Ristie (Humanity's Shadow)

Event (17)
3x Account Siphon (Core Set)
2x Dirty Laundry (Creation and Control)
2x Express Delivery (Honor and Profit)
2x Inside Job (Core Set)
2x Legwork (Honor and Profit)
3x Special Order (Core Set)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)

Hardware (10)
3x Desperado (Core Set)
1x Feedback Filter (Creation and Control)
1x Plascrete Carapace (What Lies Ahead)
2x R&D Interface (Future Proof) ••••
3x Silencer (Double Time)

Resource (8)
2x Ghost Runner (The Spaces Between)
2x John Masanori (Opening Moves)
1x Kati Jones (Humanity's Shadow)
3x Security Testing (Honor and Profit)

Icebreaker (7)
1x Corroder (Core Set) ••
2x Faerie (Future Proof)
1x Passport (Honor and Profit)
1x Refractor (First Contact) ••
2x Switchblade (Up and Over)

Program (3)
3x Cloak (Creation and Control) ••••• •

15 influence spent (max 15)
45 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Up and Over

Decklist published on NetrunnerDB.

Ok, this Andy and she draws 9 cards (we know, we know). Oh and she is our worst nightmare for our build, especially if the pilot of the deck is a good one.

1) Your window to close off your servers is very small. Your opponent has 9 starting cards and a very good draw engine. It doesn't help that Andy is packing Special Order to bring up the right breaker at the right time. Your opponent is also going to run a lot and probably turn off your ID ability a lot.

2) When the econ engine gets turned on, this Andy will overwhelm you. The run economy is a monster. 1 click + Desperado + Security Testing + John Masanori = 3 credits and a Card. 2 clicks and a 2nd Security Testing = 6 credits and a card. This is before you Account Siphon, Dirty Laundry and Sure Gambles. Kati only comes out if your get ICE up right quick and a hurry.

3) Super efficient Sentry and Code Gate breakers. Your only saving grace is that it takes a little time to setup all the pieces. There is a brief window where a Sentry + Code Gate combo will keep them out, maybe.
On one hand the stealth credits are broken up between Hardware, Programs, and Resources which makes bloody difficult to kill them. On the other if you snipe their Corroder you can effectively lock them out of most of your servers. Refactor has a central only backup that makes it hard to keep them out of there.

That's the bad news. The good news is, if you can make your servers taxing enough and you can hit them with net damage you can snipe important events and other cards out.

Feedback Filter will keep them from dying so you will not likely get a flatline win unless they are low on credits or you manage to blow it up before it is installed. They only have one and they will probably have to dig for it.

If you can make the Security Testing runs a 0 credit deal or an actual loss then you can really cramp their style, this will be hard if you don't have enough ETR ICE.

You need cheap ETR cards early to stop her early. Your big barriers are your best bet for taxing, or advanced ice walls. Once Switchblade is out with enough stealth credits it is going to go through your Sentries like Swiss Cheese.

My play is to get HQ stabilized with ice and a Caprice ASAP. If can slip out a House of Knives early, that will help kill some of her run events and if I am are super lucky a breaker. If the game goes long, I am in trouble.

This one will be a tough match up. If they get a super good draw expect an early loss. If you get a good one and they only get a fair to good draw then you got a fighting chance. Kati Jones is going to come out and now you are going to be on a clock.
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Lluluien
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Saracenus wrote:
-- in which the Evil Andy Menace is discussed... --

My version of this deck that I was playing before my Lunar cycle hiatus used to run Grims for these matchups. As you said, one of the best ways to handle her seems to be to blast the Corroder out from under her, and while Inazuma is good on its own just on top of ETR ICE (Inazuma + Eli is one of the most obnoxious servers you can make for the money, I think), it's a real problem on top of a Grim.

So many cards, so little deck space...

Edit: I consider the agenda make-up in the damage version of this deck a weakness vs. a Runner with a strong, steady economy too, at least compared to the non-damage version. You'd have to take my 1x Fast Track out of my deck over my dead body for the run economy Criminal or the Magnum Opus Shaper, because it means they can't guarantee winning the game while ignoring my remote if they can R&D lock me, especially if the game is close. In my opinion though, if you really want to make Fast Track a threat, you'll have to have either Medical Breakthrough (since the third one can be scored out of hand immediately with Trick of Light) or NAPD Contract (since it's ridiculously obnoxious to steal if you have a Caprice/Nisei token, even if they know what it is and you install/advance after fetching it). Neither of the builds you guys are considering in the damage version have Medical Breakthrough though, and only one of the two have NAPD Contract.

That's not to say the damage version might still not be better though if the damage gains you more than you lose based on the previous paragraph. But it's definitely one of the match-up interactions to consider.
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Bryan Blumklotz
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Another strong runner archetype in the PDX meta is MaxX. The week this deck won our first local Store Championship at least 2 other MaxX decks took home the gold in other cities.

The creator/pilot, Matt, of this deck is a very creative opponent and is a blast to play with. His deck building/testing buddy Jess was in the Top 4 with a variation of this deck (specifically, it did not run Levy and instead ran Power Nap, a ballsy move).

PDX: Dice Age SC: 1.31.15, 20 players, 1st Place MaxX

MaxX: Maximum Punk Rock (Order and Chaos)

Event (32)
2x Account Siphon (Core Set) ••••• •••
3x Amped Up (Order and Chaos)
3x Day Job (Order and Chaos)
3x Déjà Vu (Core Set)
2x Forked (Order and Chaos)
3x I've Had Worse (Order and Chaos)
2x Knifed (Order and Chaos)
1x Levy AR Lab Access (Creation and Control) •••
3x Retrieval Run (Future Proof)
2x Singularity (Double Time)
2x Spooned (Order and Chaos)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
3x Wanton Destruction (Order and Chaos)

Resource (8)
1x Hades Shard (First Contact)
3x Liberated Account (Trace Amount)
3x Same Old Thing (Creation and Control)
1x Utopia Shard (All That Remains)

Icebreaker (5)
3x Eater (Order and Chaos)
2x Femme Fatale (Core Set) ••

Program (2)
2x Keyhole (True Colors)

15 influence spent (max 15)
47 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Order and Chaos

Decklist published on NetrunnerDB.

Like it or not, we are all going to have to deal with Eater/Keyhole. A single Swordsman will not be enough if they have their sentry breaker out.

I neutered a version of this deck with a White Tree corp build designed to kill this combo dead (Cerebral Static, Will 'o The Whisp, Swordsman and IT Department). We don't have the luxury.

This is amazing to watch when it is in full gear. The draw power is insane and it is rarely without money. A rich Anarch is a deadly foe.

1) Vulnerable to net damage if you can kill the Eater or get House of Knives installed. Plinking cards out of their hands is rough because 2/3 of the cards are going to heap already unless they draw with clicks. Worst case is they lose Levey and most if not all of their Same Old Things.

2) They are going to mill your Snares! out and your Jacksons with Eater Keyhole. They will have the money to make multiple runs a turn. You need to stop them dead with Caprice and try to kill an Eater if you can with Swordsman. However, as soon as they retrieval run their Femme out that game is over for our decks. Nisei tokens will rock.

3) This deck is going to run, run, run. They will only pause to lay down critical cards like Same Old Thing or play a Deja Vu to bring something critical back. Closing down your centrals is key early. Once they get their combo up they will be blowing through your servers. Taxing them will be key. The only way to get Space Camp to fire out of Archives is leave it open or put down ICE but don't rez it until it cannot be avoided.

The good news is, you have plenty of tech to hamper their ability to run wild on R&D and then Hades Shard your agendas out. Also, if they give you Brain Damage, that makes it easier to kill cards they need. The bad news is the early aggression of this deck will make it hard to score Nisei (or any other 4/2 agenda) early. Be careful of Singularity and Wonton Mass Destruction.

This deck is hard to play against but it can be done and is a way better match up than Stealth Andy.
 
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Lluluien
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Saracenus wrote:
Another strong runner archetype in the PDX meta is MaxX. The week this deck won our first local Store Championship at least 2 other MaxX decks took home the gold in other cities.

The creator/pilot, Matt, of this deck is a very creative opponent and is a blast to play with. His deck building/testing buddy Jess was in the Top 4 with a variation of this deck (specifically, it did not run Levy and instead ran Power Nap, a ballsy move).

PDX: Dice Age SC: 1.31.15, 20 players, 1st Place MaxX

MaxX: Maximum Punk Rock (Order and Chaos)

First, off-topic: I think that's the best-looking version of that MaxX deck I've seen.


One of the things I like best about this deck is Retrieval Run x 3 and Femme x 2. Against a deck that blows things up like this one, I typically consider it a feature and not a bug if I can leave Archives open entirely, because your ICE is going to get seriously pressured anyway with a need to maintain defense on HQ (vs Siphon and Destruction), R&D (vs Keyhole), and the remote to score in, all the while being eaten by cutlery and potentially Keyhole too.

If you'll bare with the tangent for a moment: This is just my opinion, but I think the most oft-misunderstood thing that makes Fast Advance so good isn't that the agendas are never installed "where the Runner can get to them". Never Advance addresses that problem just fine. The fact that there are fewer actions and credits going into ICE when a remote server doesn't need to be defended is a much bigger deal, but even that I don't think is the biggest help. I think the biggest help is not having to include as much ICE in the deck in the first place - no one would argue that deck space constraint is one of the biggest problems in Corp deckbuilding even if they never thought about or even disagree w/ this problem's connection to the Fast Advance archetype.

But Space Camp in our deck is supposed to help negate this problem by letting us put little to no ICE on Archives and get some double-duty out of a Never Advance masquerade card that also gives us a little R&D access hate. If we assume we have to guard 3 servers being HQ, R&D, and a remote, that's not much different than having to defend HQ, R&D, and Archives. Retrieval Run x 3 for Femme Fatale x 2 in a deck that is tailor-made for getting Femme in the Heap is a serious, serious problem, particularly since this hoses us THREE DIFFERENT ways: 1) Femme beats Swordsman; 2) Femme beats our nastiest taxing ICE; 3) Retrieval Run gives them a massive econ boost if it's cheating Femme, and Runner econ is a principle attack vector for Never Advance.

Ouch.
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Bryan Blumklotz
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Welcome to my meta...

Thank you for the analysis. I know I am not doing these decks justice in terms of all they can do and what Never Advance needs to do to counter them.

I am going to be hitting my second store championship in two weeks and I need to work the kinks out of my build by then. Talking out my worst case scenarios is making me think hard about my deck choices. I am getting some clarity on how to approach the problems I am facing.

There are plenty of good players in my meta who would be in the Top 8 consistently if they put a little more time into thinking about their builds. I include myself in this group.

In a casual environment where folks are playing a little looser with their builds NA can be strong. It gonna have to step up if it is going to work in a competitive environment.

So, thank you for helping me look hard at what I am facing...

We have two other big guns in our meta, Noise and Leela.

The Seattle, WA Can 'o Whupass Noise build is a monster against a lot of other Corp decks but it is really vulnerable against Tennin's ID ability. That deck only runs 2-5 times the whole game and that is just crazy against this deck.

I run a very lean and hard Leela deck that I will post up after the tourney. That deck is definitely one that can cause nightmares for Tennin as it combines the nasty run econ of Andy with Leela's ability to pull Ice and installed cards up. I have a few other nasty tricks in it that I will explain later.



 
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Ulrik Bøe
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My local meta is weird, and probably not too tightly tuned. We did have a RP glacier deck kicking ass and taking names before it was cool, so occasionally good stuff comes out of it.

We got O&C just two weeks ago, and I'll miss the only tournament with legal O&C before the store champs, so I feel I'm going to go in blind. I do know that one of our stronger players have used Anarch for ages and likes huge R&D attacks, so being prepared for Keyhole is a given. And I know Kamakaze is working on a Leela control deck.

Speaking of Leela, I think the significant thing about her ID ability is that it's a bit like having Chakana or the Source permanently out - you really want to have a click to reinstall after scoring an agenda. Tennin can counter that by letting an agenda stay in the remote for a turn after getting a Tennin token, but it hurts your tempo significantly. That she can bounce your bait/trap/agenda is less significant, because she'd have to steal something else first. But if she steals an agenda and bounces yours at the same time, it really hurts.

Archives: Yes, significant archives attack is a big weakness for decks that aren't pure fast advance. Space Camp really helps, but if Anarchs play Retrieval Run and Criminal plays Security Testing...not good
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Bryan Blumklotz
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So I have been pondering the problems with no access runs and I think I may have a solution. Crisium Grid.

1) On archives with 1 ICE. Security testing will not fire (nor will Retrieval Run) and it will force an access of any cards in the the archive. If they trash it, they just spent 5 credits. They could re-run the server but they just spent 5 to get 2 or 3 credits. Even more suck if they make a Dirty Laundry run...

2) On R&D vs. Eater/Keyhole... shuts it down, completely. Now they have to somehow get in and kill Crisium Grid... good luck.

3) On HQ vs. Account Siphon or Eater/Wonton Destruction, ooooops.

4) On a Remote vs. Eater/Singularity... nope.

5) It can act as a bait card or bluff as an unrezzed Carprice. Install Snare!, no run. Next round install Crisium Grid. If they run it, stops any card based shenanigans and lets them through to hit Snare!

6) Runs are not considered successful for card abilities, I believe this means that a successful run vs. Crisium Grid does not turn off Tennin's card ability. They would have to make another run in order to deny the free advancement token.

So, here is the deck I will be testing at our LCG Game Night to see if my theory crafting actually works...

Copy of Tennin NA 22.05

Tennin Institute: The Secrets Within (Honor and Profit)

Agenda (10)
3x Fetal AI (Trace Amount)
2x House of Knives (Honor and Profit)
3x Nisei MK II (Core Set)
2x The Future Perfect (Honor and Profit)

Asset (9)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) •••
1x Melange Mining Corp. (Core Set)
3x Snare! (Core Set)
2x Space Camp (Order and Chaos) ••

Upgrade (4)
2x Caprice Nisei (Double Time)
2x Crisium Grid (First Contact) ••

Operation (9)
3x Celebrity Gift (Opening Moves)
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
2x Medical Research Fundraiser (Honor and Profit)
1x Trick of Light (Trace Amount)

Barrier (5)
3x Asteroid Belt (Order and Chaos) ••••• •
2x Ice Wall (Core Set) ••

Code Gate (7)
2x Enigma (Core Set)
3x Inazuma (Honor and Profit)
2x Lotus Field (Upstalk)

Sentry (5)
3x Mamba (Up and Over)
1x Susanoo-No-Mikoto (Honor and Profit)
1x Swordsman (Second Thoughts)

15 influence spent (max 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Order and Chaos

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.
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I've been playing Tennin almost exclusively this year taking it to three tournaments with some revisions inbetween. It's been doing great work for me winning a lot more than losing. The most recent tournament (smaller 14 player thing, we don't have a lot of players here) it went undefeated without even being close to losing in any of the games. One win to flatlining and the rest to scoring. The trick is just to punish running and tax the hell out of them. It relies pretty heavily on being good at psi games and Nisei MKII for scoring, along with keeping the runner poor. Targeted Marketing is a meta call since Noise is the deck to beat around here, the last two tournaments having 2 Andy in total and around 10 Noise or something Also people tend to be a bit hesitant running against Jinteki if you call out their Sentry breaker, I wonder why whistle So far it has a kill count of three Darwins, two Eaters and a Knight in tournament play

I tried the Space Camp thing in it for a bit when Order and Chaos came out but it just didn't work nearly as well for me :/

Tennin - Scare Tactics

Tennin Institute: The Secrets Within (Honor and Profit)

Agenda (9)
3x NAPD Contract (Double Time)
3x Nisei MK II (Core Set)
1x Philotic Entanglement (Honor and Profit)
2x The Future Perfect (Honor and Profit)

Asset (9)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) •••
3x Shock! (True Colors)
3x Snare! (Core Set)

Upgrade (2)
2x Caprice Nisei (Double Time)

Operation (12)
3x Celebrity Gift (Opening Moves)
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
1x Subliminal Messaging (Fear and Loathing)
3x Targeted Marketing (The Spaces Between) •••
2x Trick of Light (Trace Amount)

Barrier (3)
3x Snowflake (What Lies Ahead)

Code Gate (6)
1x Lotus Field (Upstalk)
3x Pop-up Window (Cyber Exodus) •••
2x Tollbooth (Core Set) ••••

Sentry (8)
1x Architect (Up and Over) ••
2x Pup (Honor and Profit)
1x Susanoo-No-Mikoto (Honor and Profit)
2x Swordsman (Second Thoughts)
2x Tsurugi (True Colors)

15 influence spent (max 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Up and Over

Deck built on NetrunnerDB
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