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Unconditional Surrender! World War 2 in Europe» Forums » Rules

Subject: Nuances of USSR Collapse rss

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Timo Kellomäki
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I just got an USSR Collapse in my east first game (sorry for the spoiler, if anybody reads the session reports), and there were a couple of details I hadn't noted before. Some of this is rules lawyering, but I think Sal prefers the rules to be precise

1) The collapse happened by a unit walking into an undefended Volkhov, which also triggered the USSR Northern Border even at the same time. I have several interpretations of the rules:

-Who gets to decide which happens first? This has a small consequence in that if the collapse is first, the two new Russian armies are not reduced.
-If the collapse happens first, should the Northern Border still happen, since there is nobody threatening the Northern Border any more?

2) In step 4, all Axis units are repatriated from the active USSR, but exceptionally they have to be put into the occupied USSR instead of their home countries. The rule says they can be placed in a hex even if there is a Soviet counter there.

-Besides home country, repatriation also requires placement next to a friendly city and no EZOCs. Do I still need to place the units in/next to my cities in the Occupied USSR? There are only few of those in an east-first game.

-Also, if I have to put them in an EZOC-free hex but an exception gives me the ability to place directly ON an enemy unit, I still cannot place my units NEXT TO an enemy unit.

-A funny thing happened to the Turks, who had dared to cross the border into USSR (Georgia). They are also Axis units and should be repatriated to... The Occupied USSR. In my game, there is no land route back to Turkey, since Bulgaria and Greece are neutral (Turkey activated after a Soviet diplomatic failure). I also cannot ship them home, because the Italian convoy is not allowed into Turkey, and the German one cannot make it through Gibraltar or Suez. It seems they are stuck until they find a way to die.

The last question also leads me to wonder if the designers ever considered giving Turkey and Spain convoy action markers, since their abilities to use the Mediterranean now feels quite lackluster.
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Bas de Bakker
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We had the same issue with the Finns being repatriated to the Occupied USSR. They just died from lack of supply and were rebuilt in Finland. Not a real problem, but it did seem strange.
 
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Timo Kellomäki
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bassie wrote:
We had the same issue with the Finns being repatriated to the Occupied USSR. They just died from lack of supply and were rebuilt in Finland. Not a real problem, but it did seem strange.


Oh you're right, supplying is of course voluntary. So this is not a catastrophe considering my upcoming Axis attack into Syria from Turkey.
 
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Mark Dey
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Daemou wrote:
I just got an USSR Collapse in my east first game (sorry for the spoiler, if anybody reads the session reports), and there were a couple of details I hadn't noted before. Some of this is rules lawyering, but I think Sal prefers the rules to be precise

1) The collapse happened by a unit walking into an undefended Volkhov, which also triggered the USSR Northern Border even at the same time. I have several interpretations of the rules:

-Who gets to decide which happens first? This has a small consequence in that if the collapse is first, the two new Russian armies are not reduced.
-If the collapse happens first, should the Northern Border still happen, since there is nobody threatening the Northern Border any more?


That's quite a corner case. I would say to do the USSR Northern Border first, and then collapse the USSR.

Daemou wrote:
2) In step 4, all Axis units are repatriated from the active USSR, but exceptionally they have to be put into the occupied USSR instead of their home countries. The rule says they can be placed in a hex even if there is a Soviet counter there.

-Besides home country, repatriation also requires plament next to a friendly city and no EZOCs. Do I still need to place the units in/next to my cities in the Occupied USSR? There are only few of those in an east-first game.

-Also, if I have to put them in an EZOC-free hex but an exception gives me the ability to place directly ON an enemy unit, I still cannot place my units NEXT TO an enemy unit.

-A funny thing happened to the Turks, who had dared to cross the border into USSR (Georgia). They are also Axis units and should be repatriated to... The Occupied USSR. In my game, there is no land route back to Turkey, since Bulgaria and Greece are neutral (Turkey activated after a Soviet diplomatic failure). I also cannot ship them home, because the Italian convoy is not allowed into Turkey, and the German one cannot make it through Gibraltar or Suez. It seems they are stuck until they find a way to die.

The last question also leads me to wonder if the designers ever considered giving Turkey and Spain convoy action markers, since their abilities to use the Mediterranean now feels quite lackluster.


Convoy markers were considered, but determined to be too much of a boost to minor countries. There are What If? markers to cover that though. As was mentioned elsewhere - you can voluntarily eliminate the Turks after they are done participating in the victory celebration / occupation following the collapse.
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Salvatore Vasta
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Yes, I do like the rules to be precise.

I will update the rules. Mark's answer is good for now.

However, I'm thinking the following would be the simplest approach to avoid having to write out and maintain a specific list.

If more than one Conditional Event happens at the same time, perform the rules in numeric order from lowest to highest.
Example: USSR collapse (13.2) and USSR Northern Border (13.7) occur at the same time when an Axis ground unit moves into Volkhov (hex 1548). Rule 13.2 is performed before 13.7.

As for EZOC, it should be ignored when repatriating within Occupied USSR.

As for non-German units, I think I'm going to have them go back to their own country instead of Occupied USSR.

Sal
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Timo Kellomäki
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Thanks Sal, I think all of the solutions you suggest would work fine.
 
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Salvatore Vasta
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Here's the errata.

13.2.1.1 USSR: Step 4, 1st paragraph, 2nd sentence: Change to “A repatriated German unit must be placed within Occupied USSR (instead of Germany), even if the hex has a Soviet: unit, EZOC, or marker.”

13.0 Conditional Events: Add,

"If more than one Conditional Event happens at the same time, perform the rules in numeric order from lowest to highest.

Example: USSR collapse (13.2) and USSR Northern Border (13.7) occur at the same time when an Axis ground unit moves into Volkhov (hex 1548). Rule 13.2 is performed before 13.7."
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