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Subject: ADF track rss

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Henrik Reschreiter
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I am having my second go at a campaign with the advanced rules and almost all optional rules for kicks. The first was a horribly botched disaster for the PRC and I stopped it out of mercy in turn 3.

The second one is now at the start of turn 4 in the tactical surprise scenario.
While the landing went successfully, and a solid bridgehead is established, the air war is the interesting one.

The PRC -albeit at high losses- are maintaining a small advantage, largely thanks to a lot of missile strikes and attacks against airbases. The stealth planes on both sides are evil and rule the skies...

The ADF track however is the most interesting and important part.

The PRC has every turn allocated all their SOF, and some cruise missile strikes against the detection track value, and despite 2 box repairs (max permitted) per turn, the ROC detection value is 0-1 all the time now, making the almost untouched SAM value of 6 almost meaningless, but at least it is still of some value. This helps greatly the air attacks against bases if the detection value is 0, as no ED value is possible, so the Allied interceptors are meaningless.

The Allies did the same thing, and particularly once the WW planes pitched up, together with some stealth B2 strikes, and aided by some AH-1 bonus WW mission(s), the PRC detection value hit 0 very quickly on turn 3, and the SAM value is now the same.

There is no coming back from that, as the 2 repairs are easily dealt with by 2 WW + the heli WW, and if required, by 1-2 big bad bomber strikes if the dice went unlucky. Even the rotating and sometime only alternate turn available strategic US bombers can comfortable allocate 1-2 per turn to this.

Am I missing something? The Allies, if they concentrate on the ADF, should always be able once the WW pitch up to rapidly turn this into a possible game winner. Essentially, both sides have no air defence left of note now almost every turn.
Next will be a massive bombing campaign with impunity against the Chinese ports to reduce their sub value, and to thus cut the supply line via soon to be Allied sea and inshore control in the Taiwan Straits I think. And that should seal it for the Allies.

Yes, the SOF strikes via losses will get less, and yes, the cruise missiles will run out, but even ordinary strikes can keep this low quite easily I think. Considering the enormous reserves of mainland china, is 4 SP repairs per turn, i.e. two steps on the ADF, too little? Should more be permissible, considering that supply limits soon will become a factor? But this at least contests this area with the Allies

How was this felt to go in the testing, or is this meant to be this way even?

I am having a ball playing this, just am afraid that I am missing something big that might skew the game.
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Mitchell Land
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hreschreiter wrote:
I am having my second go at a campaign with the advanced rules and almost all optional rules for kicks. The first was a horribly botched disaster for the PRC and I stopped it out of mercy in turn 3.

The second one is now at the start of turn 4 in the tactical surprise scenario.
While the landing went successfully, and a solid bridgehead is established, the air war is the interesting one.

The PRC -albeit at high losses- are maintaining a small advantage, largely thanks to a lot of missile strikes and attacks against airbases. The stealth planes on both sides are evil and rule the skies...

The ADF track however is the most interesting and important part.

The PRC has every turn allocated all their SOF, and some cruise missile strikes against the detection track value, and despite 2 box repairs (max permitted) per turn, the ROC detection value is 0-1 all the time now, making the almost untouched SAM value of 6 almost meaningless, but at least it is still of some value. This helps greatly the air attacks against bases if the detection value is 0, as no ED value is possible, so the Allied interceptors are meaningless.

The Allies did the same thing, and particularly once the WW planes pitched up, together with some stealth B2 strikes, and aided by some AH-1 bonus WW mission(s), the PRC detection value hit 0 very quickly on turn 3, and the SAM value is now the same.

There is no coming back from that, as the 2 repairs are easily dealt with by 2 WW + the heli WW, and if required, by 1-2 big bad bomber strikes if the dice went unlucky. Even the rotating and sometime only alternate turn available strategic US bombers can comfortable allocate 1-2 per turn to this.

Am I missing something? The Allies, if they concentrate on the ADF, should always be able once the WW pitch up to rapidly turn this into a possible game winner. Essentially, both sides have no air defence left of note now almost every turn.
Next will be a massive bombing campaign with impunity against the Chinese ports to reduce their sub value, and to thus cut the supply line via soon to be Allied sea and inshore control in the Taiwan Straits I think. And that should seal it for the Allies.

Yes, the SOF strikes via losses will get less, and yes, the cruise missiles will run out, but even ordinary strikes can keep this low quite easily I think. Considering the enormous reserves of mainland china, is 4 SP repairs per turn, i.e. two steps on the ADF, too little? Should more be permissible, considering that supply limits soon will become a factor? But this at least contests this area with the Allies

How was this felt to go in the testing, or is this meant to be this way even?

I am having a ball playing this, just am afraid that I am missing something big that might skew the game.


Pretty much nailed the Allied strategy. A lot can, obviously, depend on the die rolls, but that's it in a nutshell.

Note that I will likely be releasing some Optional rules relatively soon allowing players a more nuanced view into providing an air defense umbrella with their Naval Units.
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Henrik Reschreiter
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Great, thank you.

How long did the PRC air defence hold in testing out of interest. Or is it simply that the optional rule giving the US the strategic bombers so early is just so strong, maybe too strong?
It would be a shame if effectively all games are decided by say turn 3-6 via this approach.
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Mitchell Land
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hreschreiter wrote:
Great, thank you.

How long did the PRC air defence hold in testing out of interest. Or is it simply that the optional rule giving the US the strategic bombers so early is just so strong, maybe too strong?
It would be a shame if effectively all games are decided by say turn 3-6 via this approach.


Generally speaking, the PRC Air Defenses were rarely tested by Allied players. There were usually too many other things to do, and the bombers tended to be very vulnerable when unescorted (and, occasionally, even when escorted). Remember that the bombers initially start in the Recovery Box, and not all of them will make their rolls to be ready on GT2. In addition, every time they fly, they go back to the Recovery Box, and they can take a while to recover. I generally had 50% of the bombers available per turn.

Once the Allied Wild Weasels show up in force, things started to change, but often, those WW units were also used to escort vital Strikes into the playing area.

A lot depends on how desperate the situation on the ground is. At the end of the day, an Allied air force with all the optionals is a dangerous beast if the US and Japan are both involved. At some point, it becomes worth the PRC's effort to start bombing Japan (hoping for some collateral damage) even though that raises the Intervention Level.

Edit: Technically, the PRC Holding Box should probably have had permanent, non-reducible Air Defense Values (similar to Japan's) or, at least, a separate track from their ADF assets on Taiwan. I wanted to highlight, however, the different options an Allied player might have by going to town against the PRC itself.
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Henrik Reschreiter
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Interesting; I put max effort into harming the PRC ADF track from the word go, and ignored the ground situation as long as a port would not fall. The rest becomes irrelevant once the air umbrella (ADF track detection +- SAM) ceases to exit, as the PRC ground units will rapidly end up isolated via loss of bridgehead, or via naval control interruption approach if they managed to get a port.

But I admit, I did play the start bombers incorrectly in that I missed the starting in recovery box bit, and placed them in the ready box. So this all should only have started 1-2 turns later.

In turn 2 I think I only flew the stealth B2s against the PRC track, as the others were too vulnerable as you say, then the SOF phase hit in turn 3 unleashed the lot to finish things, even if 1-2 might have got lost at a worst case.
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Henrik Reschreiter
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Toadkillerdog wrote:


Edit: Technically, the PRC Holding Box should probably have had permanent, non-reducible Air Defense Values (similar to Japan's) or, at least, a separate track from their ADF assets on Taiwan. I wanted to highlight, however, the different options an Allied player might have by going to town against the PRC itself.


That is fact might make for an interesting optional rule. The ADF only applies to the situation in Taiwan, with a fixed value for the home ports/airfields. This would go a long way in preserving those China mainland ports, and thus make it a lot harder to achieve naval control of the straights. Otherwise 1-3 ports destroyed (probably not that hard over with say 1 port per turn), reduce the sub threat to zero, and positive drm then makes naval control rapidly a certain thing.
What values would you think would be the right ones for the homeland in the same lines as for JP< Phil etc?
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Mitchell Land
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hreschreiter wrote:
Toadkillerdog wrote:


Edit: Technically, the PRC Holding Box should probably have had permanent, non-reducible Air Defense Values (similar to Japan's) or, at least, a separate track from their ADF assets on Taiwan. I wanted to highlight, however, the different options an Allied player might have by going to town against the PRC itself.


That is fact might make for an interesting optional rule. The ADF only applies to the situation in Taiwan, with a fixed value for the home ports/airfields. This would go a long way in preserving those China mainland ports, and thus make it a lot harder to achieve naval control of the straights. Otherwise 1-3 ports destroyed (probably not that hard over with say 1 port per turn), reduce the sub threat to zero, and positive drm then makes naval control rapidly a certain thing.
What values would you think would be the right ones for the homeland in the same lines as for JP< Phil etc?


Here is what we're using for that very purpose in Next War: India-Pakistan: Air Defenses: Detection: 7; SAMs: 7; AAA: 2
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