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Sergeants Miniatures Game: Day of Days» Forums » General

Subject: Quality question rss

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Jason Weber
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Hi Everyone,

I am considering investing in this game but after reading the forums here are concerned about the various quality issues raised. Normally I'd just walk away given the number of complaints but [1] this game seems very appealing and [2] most of the scary posts are older.

How do people who own the game and the expansions feel about the quality issues now? Specifically:

- have the rules issues been clarified?
- aside from Day of Days, which other components are solid?
- which sets currently have issues?
- are there any specific things to look for or stay away from?
- any other guidance?

Many thanks in advance for the help.
 
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Damen Parker
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Jason1024 wrote:


- have the rules issues been clarified?


This is something being currently addressed openly in the forums on BGG. Such as http://boardgamegeek.com/article/18249691#18249691 The original rules are not too bad but are a little ambiguous in places. It depends who you play with. If you or your opponent are very competitive and like to have every situation covered by a rule then expect some debate at the table and some frustration with the rules.

Quote:

- aside from Day of Days, which other components are solid?

Not entirely sure what you mean by this. The quality of the physical product throughout the entire product range is absolutely superb.

Quote:

- which sets currently have issues?

IMHO none. Just the ambiguity in the rules though this has already been improved upon.
Quote:

- are there any specific things to look for or stay away from?

It is probably worth getting a few extras rather than just the base game. More men give you squad options. I would stay away from team boards initially as they seem to create an imbalance in the game and add a level of complexity. Mortars and PIATs don't seem to be good value for money in terms of useability on the battlefield.

Quote:

- any other guidance?

Set your expectation. If you love aesthetics and allow some fluidity to the rules then this game is definitely for you.

I'm sure others will chip in. It is also worth considering that the game is kind of under development as well. An on-line squad builder in in progress and more terrain and expansions seem to be on the way. One negative is the time scale. The powers to be seem to get side tracked in to other projects such as D-Day though I think this will benefit SMG in the long run.

Cheers
D.
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Jason Weber
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Thank you Damen! "Solid" is very ambiguous, and the point is taken about the high physical quality of the components. It's a big part of the appeal of the game (to me, at least).

I have read that there were issues with some soldiers being overpowered, that in some cases there were no privates in Red Devils, and some other reports of what I broadly interpret/view as quality issues. What I should have asked instead was "which sets can I buy to avoid these kinds of issues?"

Your points re: mortars and PIATs are taken (and well supported in the forums). Thanks again for the helpful guidance.
 
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Mayor Jim
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Damen pretty much hit it all. The rules still have a few ambiguous or not addressed items. The gripes about the British soldiers being all Lance corporals are just that...gripes. They don't really affect game play in my opinion. You might want to stay away from some (all) of the tactics or battle panels until or if you acquire a few extra troops e.g. MGr and Asst. The X terrain (3d) buildings might be added later as well. The rules for their use is still "fuzzy" around the edges.
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Martin Gallo
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I seem to recall that the only "fuzziness" in the rules is with some of the specialist expansion stuff (panzerfaust, mortars and such) and with the x-tarrain. The basic rules are pretty solid and quite playable. I agree that the game gets better if you add a few troops beyond the box set because of the added variety. Playing one scenario with different troops can actually make it a different scenario.
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Greg
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I love the game, warts and all.

The rules have gotten a lot better for sure. They did an update to them for the Red Devils release and then have been including that version of the rules in the Day of Days base set from that point on.

The main current issues with the rules revolve around the X-Terrain, but Rob Belli is currently working on revising them. I have Hasty Positions and St. Come du Mont sets. Not so many issues with Hasty Positions, but the St. Come du Mont set has some that caused me to come up with my own rulings where there wasn't anything specific (or at all) in the rules. These had more issues because of the buildings and how things work in different situations. So the other expansions with buildings would be similar in that regard. That being said, Rob is working on updating the rules for them and is doing so here at BGG, so people can ask questions and offer input as he posts certain updates etc. Regardless of that, in the meantime, it's certainly doable to come up with your own rulings on things that are ambiguous. Ultimately, if you are the one with the game and teaching it, then teach the rulings you come up with as well and it's all good. If you play against someone that also has the game, then compare rulings before play and all is good. But you can also hold off on the X-Terrain for awhile until Rob finishes with updating the rules, as there are plenty of other things to buy in the meantime.

As far as the no privates in Red Devils, that was kind of a mistake, but I was in a thread discussion with Jeff (owner/designer) and we've come up with an idea that he will pitch to the others there. They may start generating Red Devil private soldiers teams, so that people that have Red Devils will be able to buy teams that only have privates in them. It's not 100% done deal yet, but Jeff seemed very open to it and enthusiastic about this solution. The issue had been about how things were being input to make upgraded soldiers and they didn't come out as privates, so now he will likely be able to create another program generator for them so that the British can have some privates. The thing about the other ones already available is that they will be worth more for the campaign system that Jeff has been developing. So the will show up as more veteran soldiers and perhaps be able to get upgraded better or whatever else will be available down the road.

As far as some soldiers being overpowered, not sure if you mean the few "super soldiers" that got generated by mistake but rectified, or if you mean that some soldiers are better than others. Super soldiers aren't an issue, as that was a bad run that got fixed. But certainly some soldiers are going to be better than others. That comes with the territory of having all unique soldiers (other than the Character soldiers that come in the base sets). In this system, soldiers aren't robots in that one soldier is exactly the same as all the rest. With this system, you will have "personalities" that you will discover while playing. Some soldiers appear better for their cost (VP's) in a basic glance because of their weapon's range (not so much indicative of that weapon, but that soldier's skill with that weapon), or the number of "hits" on the "to hit" chart on their cards. While others may be better in other ways, where they may be able to take cover better or spot enemy soldiers better. Or they may have more actions available on their cards than other soldiers. Or they may have more kill cards (not good when you are being shot at, but great when you are in close combat). Also, there are Shoot, Hide, Move, Look soldier cards that will allow you to play them during phases where those actions come up. Some soldiers will have a higher number of certain ones of those cards, while some will have them more evenly spread out. So when you make up your squad, there are a lot of things to consider to balance them based on how you want to play them. So that's neat.

As far as sets to stay away from. Like I mentioned earlier, you might want to stay away from X-Terrain at the moment since they are revising the rules. But then again, if you don't mind coming up with some of your own rulings where needed, then these are some beautiful pieces that add to the look and feel of the game. But they are not needed to have an awesome game experience. Road to Carentan and La Fiere Bridge are good expansions. I have Road to Carentan. For the Red Devils I have the Operation Tonga expansion. Whether you get Day of Days, or Red Devils base set, you definitely will want one of the expansions as they offer more map size with more tiles, and that opens up more options and variety in gameplay. Base set scenarios are great for learning, but being that they are relatively small maps, there's less room for flanking or taking advantage of cover, and more close combat.

As far as soldiers, as has been mentioned before by Damen, I'd steer away from the PIAT and Morter team for now for the British. But other than that, I'd look for a squad bundle that gets you a deal on getting several soldiers and a leader or two. Leaders are important because of the number of cards they let you draw that offers you more variety/choices during the game, as well as helps determine initiative. Leaders also come in 3 ranks, so they can be played in various situations for your squad's needs.

The only other thing I can offer at the moment that I can think of is that I've played this game a good bit and have had fun every time. Win or lose, it's been a fun experience because the games have all been different. There is some tactics that players will learn with more experience. You really want to take advantage of cover and flanking some of the enemy. You will learn to play to your squad's strength based on how you built them. Considering the scope of the game and all the features of it, there is only small parts that have issues. And those issues are easy enough to come up solutions if you need/want to.
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Jeff Pseudonym
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Jason1024 wrote:
Hi Everyone,

I am considering investing in this game but after reading the forums here are concerned about the various quality issues raised. Normally I'd just walk away given the number of complaints but [1] this game seems very appealing and [2] most of the scary posts are older.

How do people who own the game and the expansions feel about the quality issues now? Specifically:

- have the rules issues been clarified?

The game rules were written a little loose at first and that lead to some problems but most of those were cleared up. Right now LBG is in the process of updating the rules with fixes and tweaks and they should have an advanced copy up for review here soon. One thing to remember is that LBG is a relatively small company so they don't seem to get to fixes as quick as some of us would like. They did promise that after the D-Day kickstarter and before the SHOW kickstarter they would go over the rules and clean them up as well as errors in the scenarios/missions. That is what they are doing now.
Jason1024 wrote:

- aside from Day of Days, which other components are solid?

From a component stand point I have not seen any issues. Any and all issues have come from rules/design understanding and interpretation. The physical products are great. The boards are laser cut which results in a little ash on the pieces which can be wiped off easy enough. That or your fingers will be blackish after the first game or two. DO NOT USE baby wipes. Just a tissue.
Jason1024 wrote:

- which sets currently have issues?

The only ones I would hesitate with right now is the X-Terrain (3D stuff) as they are being worked on right now. I would wait on those anyway right now and I will explain below.
Jason1024 wrote:

- are there any specific things to look for or stay away from?

Not really. There is a path that should be walked though in how you buy. See below.
Jason1024 wrote:

- any other guidance?

Ok. You can start with Day of Days (US) or Red Devils (British). Go with Day of Days. Day of Days is fun but the maps are small and most battles become a giant brawl. It will give you an idea of how gameplay works though. Most of us suggest getting DoD (Day of Days) and the RtC (Road to Carentan) expansion as it will give you much bigger maps that allow for a lot more tactical play.
The base game comes with 5 troops for each side. That is fine to get to know the system but like above, unless you get some more soldiers you will have very limited tactical options. There are some bundle sets which are nice but they do drive the price up.
Now here is something to remember. The game is squad on squad combat. This means that (until you really learn the game) you should be using mostly rifleman and add in ONE specialty. Specialty being a Sniper, Mortar, MG, Scouts etc. While they are all cool in one way or another they should be the icing on the cake, not the desert itself. So based on that, get yourself maybe a MG team and Rifle Grenade/Panzer Faust for each side.

You really need to ease into the game because if you go all out then it is very easy to get overwhelmed. Understand the basics before going on to advanced rules and pieces. With that in mind:

Get DoD, and Chapter expansions and basic troops and leaders first

Get simple advanced soldiers next such as MG teams, SMGers, Panzerfaust, Rifle Grenade…etc

Get Specialists third as they bring “ANY”, “PREEMT”, and “REACT” into the
fray. These are Scouts, Fusiliers, Snipers, Glider Assault..etc.

After that you can get Tactics Modules OR X-Terrain. They both change the game a bit. The game map is very abstract about buildings and line-of-sight and things like that. X-Terrain adds in actual building you enter and rules for attacking them/from them. Tactics modules are neat because you must bring certain troop types with you and work them together and they add in some very cool options. But if you lose those troops you can end up with “dead cards” which can hurt.

The point being, make sure you understand the basic game then add something new in. I hope that helps.
Jason1024 wrote:

Many thanks in advance for the help.

No problem. Ask anything you want and we will try to help.

Also know that the game will expand to add in vehicles/tanks to the mix soon. Nobody (outside of LBG) knows how exactly that will be done. It will not be giant tank on tank battles. It will more likely be 5 soldiers and a tank vs 8 soldiers and a gun. Things like that. It will also be optional. I’m not sure when the Kickstarter will start up but there may be tiers that are meant to bring new players into the SMG world and thus you may be able to jump in and get more bang for your buck. It would not hurt to email them to ask if that will be the case. Just a thought.

-Jeff M.
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Tom Boyd
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Jeff's post should be a sticky, as it really lays it all out. I'll echo his advice to start with Day of Days, and (if your budget allows) Road to Carentan and an MG team for each side. This is plenty to get you going, and find out if you like the system enough to dive all in. After that, the squad bundles are a great value, and will give you more options for tailoring your squads.
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Maxime Noel
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I for one love my Red Devils!! And I do have 1 private in my army!

But what everyone said, base game plus one story expansion for bigger maps and a couple soldier.

Do they still make run and gun bundle? Or any bundle at all? They where great starting kit!
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Mayor Jim
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Jeff, good summaries +1thumbsup...my take as well...good gaming.
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Mayor Jim
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kilukru wrote:
I for one love my Red Devils!! And I do have 1 private in my army!

But what everyone said, base game plus one story expansion for bigger maps and a couple soldier.

Do they still make run and gun bundle? Or any bundle at all? They where great starting kit!
Can you post a pic of your private's card?
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Maxime Noel
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MayorJim wrote:
kilukru wrote:
I for one love my Red Devils!! And I do have 1 private in my army!

But what everyone said, base game plus one story expansion for bigger maps and a couple soldier.

Do they still make run and gun bundle? Or any bundle at all? They where great starting kit!
Can you post a pic of your private's card?


I'm out of town for a couple of days, I will do it when I'm back, probably Thursday
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Jason Weber
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Thank you all for the very helpful suggestions and info. I'm going to give this system a try following the guidance above.

Not sure if LBG recognizes ambassadors for its products in any way but there are certainly a few in this thread, and more generally on this site. Thanks again!
 
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Rob Koch
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Jason,
Since LBG is in the Upperco, Maryland area they may even have some demos (demoes?) of the game at some local stores so you could give it a try before jumping in.

- Rob K.
 
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