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Subject: How far can Diala's Reach reach when fighting? rss

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Walt Le
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In our game last Saturday our IP questioned how far Diala's reach extends to.

Can you please see if I am right that Diala can melee with any Imperial located in any of the squares below in green?

Diala is located in the corner, and the thick black lines are walls.



I realise there was another thread recently about this, but that thread confused me, so I hope it is OK to ask this question here.

PS.
I understand that Diala won't be able to use reach with objects - see the following thread link - but in terms of fighting, can she do so?

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1293693/we-cant-use-reach-at...
 
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Scott Forster
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RRG, page 21: Reach wrote:
A figure with this keyword may perform (melee) attacks that
target figures up to 2 spaces away.
• The attacking figure must have line of sight to the target in
order to make this attack.
• An attack with Reach does not require Accuracy


There is no "Reach 2," to my knowledge. You either have Reach or you do not have Reach.

You can attack figures up to 2 spaces away, so Column E and Row 6 are out. Those are 3 away.

You must have line of sight, so spaces 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, and 16 are out.

That leaves Spaces 7, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18, & 19.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Also note that figures would block line of sight, so if all of those are actually figures, she would only be able to target spaces 9, 12 and 13; Reach or not.

Making the assumption that only a single Imperial figure is present, Scott has everything correct.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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I made up my own quick image to demonstrate the two factors you need to take into account. In order to make a Reach attack against each square, you need both conditions to be Blue (i.e., have LoS and Accuracy is 2 or fewer).

It's not the same example as the one in the OP, but it demonstrates the condition of being next to a wall edge, which is probably weirder to most than the two-length wall.

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Sheldon Morris
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Clipper wrote:
In order to make a Reach attack against each square, you need both conditions to be Blue (i.e., have LoS and Accuracy is 2 or fewer).

I'm fairly sure melee attacks, even with reach, never require accuracy.

Edit: Ah, I see what you mean; you are in effect using "Accuracy" as "Range". Still, it's good to note that you don't actually need to roll any accuracy.
 
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Pasi Ojala
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Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
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Hugin wrote:
Clipper wrote:
In order to make a Reach attack against each square, you need both conditions to be Blue (i.e., have LoS and Accuracy is 2 or fewer).

I'm fairly sure melee attacks, even with reach, never require accuracy.

A slip of tongue from Clipper. He naturally means distance, not accuracy. Melee attacks require adjacency (you always have LoS to adjacent figures and objects), which is distance 1. Reach requires LoS and at most distance 2.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Sorry for accidentally insinuating that you required Accuracy to be rolled. I wanted a term I could easily shorten to fit in the box, but I see now that my choice caused confusion.
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Walt Le
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Thanks a lot everyone for your replies

Clipper that picture is fantastic and makes things very clear now, thanks for going to the trouble of doing that!
 
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James M
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Clipper wrote:
I made up my own quick image to demonstrate the two factors you need to take into account. In order to make a Reach attack against each square, you need both conditions to be Blue (i.e., have LoS and Accuracy is 2 or fewer).

It's not the same example as the one in the OP, but it demonstrates the condition of being next to a wall edge, which is probably weirder to most than the two-length wall.




Looking at this picture by clipper, the person with reach based on the RRG page 21 regarding reach, all a figure needs to do is trace LOS, and since LOS is based on tracing two uninterrupted lines from one point. the figure in the picture can reach out the spaces directly to the left for a "accuracy" aka range of one and then reach from there to the upper squares directly above and above to the left, which I will call A2 and B2 and would be eligible targets for a reach attack based on the rules as written.

Anyone else agree?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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When counting spaces, you follow movement rules for a standard figure. You cannot move through walls or blocking terrain and you cannot count spaces through them either. That is why the space to the left of the Figure with Reach in my diagram is at a distance of two. You need to count down-and-left before you count up to get to that space.
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James M
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However, you are using the rules governing ranged attacks by using the words counting spaces.

Counting spaces is only used in a ranged attack to determine accuracy.

from the RRG regarding reach,

A figure with this keyword may perform (melee) attacks that
target figures up to 2 spaces away.
• The attacking figure must have line of sight to the target in
order to make this attack.
• An attack with Reach does not require Accuracy.


from the RRG regarding Line of Sight,

Line of sight is used to determine what a figure can “see.” Line
of sight is most often used to determine which figures can be
targeted by a O (ranged) attack.
To determine line of sight, the player draws two imaginary, nonintersecting lines from one corner of the attacking figure’s space
to two adjacent corners of the target’s space. If either of these lines
passes through a wall, figure, or blocking terrain, then the figure
does not have line of sight to the target.
• Line of sight can be traced from or to any corner on the map.
Each line can be traced along the corners and edges of spaces
containing figures, doors, walls, and blocked spaces.
• Walls only block line of sight along an entire edge of a space.
If a wall does not cover an entire edge, then line of sight may
be traced to, from, and through that edge.
• Line of sight cannot be traced through a corner where any
combination of walls and blocking terrain intersect. It can be
traced through the combination of one figure and a diagonally
positioned wall, blocking terrain, or other figure.
• Figures have line of sight to adjacent figures.
• It is possible for a figure to have line of sight to another figure
that does not have line of sight back to itself. This most often
happens when a figure is behind a wall or figure. Thematically,
this represents a figure leaning out of cover to make an attack
and then ducking back behind cover.
• A figure does not block line of sight to itself. The target figure
also does not block line of sight.
• Adjacent figures always have line of sight to each other.

Nowhere in this segment of the RRG states counting spaces is necessary, the only thing necessary for reach to take effect is for the player with reach to be able to have line of sight and be withing two spaces.

I hope this clears up my interpretation of the rules regarding reach.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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The 'Within X Spaces' section of the RRG refers to the Counting Spaces section. Reach requires the target to be within two spaces as you say, so that is why you follow rules for counting spaces. The space left of the Figure with Reach is within 2 spaces, but not within 1 space.

My 'Acc.' values are showing the smallest value of X for each space such that it is within X spaces of the Figure with Reach.

RRG - Counting Spaces wrote:
Many effects require players to measure the distance between two
spaces.
To determine this number, the player counts the number
of movement points it would take for a figure to move from one
space to the other.

Impassible terrain, figures, and difficult terrain can be moved into
and through without costing additional movement point for this
measurement. This measurement cannot go through walls, doors,
or blocking terrain.
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James M
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I see it now, I'm slow and probably have been playing that rule incorrectly.
 
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Ben
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Quote:
RR Page 26: Line of sight can be traced through the target (5). Figures on opposite sides of the end of a wall have line of sight to each other (6), but since the spaces are not adjacent, [melee] attacks cannot be performed unless the attacker has Reach.


There is a pic to, with a similar situation... So a normal melee attack can't attack B3, just with reach. A2 and B2 aren't possible with reach!
 
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Paul Flesher
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laying_low wrote:


Nowhere in this segment of the RRG states counting spaces is necessary, the only thing necessary for reach to take effect is for the player with reach to be able to have line of sight and be withing two spaces.

I hope this clears up my interpretation of the rules regarding reach.


What about if there is a figure in the way of the 2 spaces as in the picture below trying to attack the 'X'?

Does the circle block the ability to count the 2 spaces?


 
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Craig S.
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wonderchicken wrote:
laying_low wrote:


Nowhere in this segment of the RRG states counting spaces is necessary, the only thing necessary for reach to take effect is for the player with reach to be able to have line of sight and be withing two spaces.

I hope this clears up my interpretation of the rules regarding reach.


What about if there is a figure in the way of the 2 spaces as in the picture below trying to attack the 'X'?

Does the circle block the ability to count the 2 spaces?




Nope.
 
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Pasi Ojala
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Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
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Counting Spaces does not care about figures nor impassible terrain. Line of Sight does, but in the example the figure does have line of sight to X (O does not block line of sight).
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Yeah. The counting of spaces does not have to coincide with the lines for line of sight in any way.

A good example of this can be seen in this image:


If Jyn wants to shoot the Imperial Officer, she can only gain her line of sight via her top-left corner. If she wanted to count spaces to determine needed Accuracy via the same path, it would be 5, as shown by the orange numbers. However, Jyn actually only needs only 3 Accuracy, as the green path also exists for counting spaces.

So the needed Accuracy is 3, even though Jyn cant count see the Imperial Officer via the path along which we count spaces. The line of sight and counting spaces mechanisms are not tied together, and you will just confuse yourself if you try to consider them to be.
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