Mister Easton
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Could anyone confirm that when you move X times your speed due to skills or other effects (rather than through a move action or suffering fatigue), that this doesn't count as receiving movement points?

Is there any statement from FFG on this?

This came up specifically with Jain's heroic feat (move 2 x speed and attack before, after or during) but multiple skills and effects refer to moving X times speed or up to your speed. It could be relevant for effects like Pit Trap (which makes you check for remaining movement points to assess wether to apply Stun or not). Do skills like Jain's heroic feat count as receiving movement points, making them much less susceptible for effects that trigger when you have no more movement points left? Or are there no movement points and do those effects therefor always apply (in the case of Pit Trap, Stun will always happen if the Pit Trap succeeds)?
 
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Paul
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It does not involve MP at all. Here's an excerpt from my glossary of terms (in the files section here):

Quote:
Movement Point (MP): A movement point can be spent (or gained by suffering a fatigue ) before or after any action, or during a movement action to move from the current space into an adjacent space.

MP Pool: The total spendable MP a figure has. The MP pool can only be used during a figure's turn (or monster's activation.) At other times, the MP pool is equal to zero, and MP must be spent immediately when gained if at all. The MP Pool also immediately becomes zero when a figure becomes immobilized, or when a figure ends a move action.

Move action: Increases the MP in a figure's MP pool by an amount equal to its Speed. Once performed, a move action is considered to be “in progress” (except while interrupted) until all of the MP gained by it are spent and the figure performs another action, or the figure’s activation ends, whichever comes first.

Move up to your speed: A figure may move as if it had that number of MP. However, no MP are involved in this movement, and the MP Pool is unaffected.

Move X spaces: Similar to "move up to your speed," but the spaces are counted ignoring extra movement cost for terrain spaces (for example, a water space counts as 1 space, not 2.)


When Jain performs her heroic feat, she does not gain any MP. As a result, If pit trap were played (and she hadn't previously gained a MP from some other source) she would be stunned. However, she would still be able to finish her heroic feat, as the action was already begun.
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Curtis Delaney
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Where did you get the information in your glossary of terms?

Of particular interest to me is the bit about moving through water costing 1 point instead of 2. Is this information direct from FFG rulings?

Thanks!
 
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Paul
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Moving through water does cost 2 MP. But if you're "moving X spaces" all you're doing is counting spaces, so you ignore the additional movement cost normally associated with water. In the base game rulebook, page 13, it describes counting spaces:

Quote:
When counting spaces for attacks and abilities,
players ignore any non-obstacle terrain in those spaces (see “Terrain” on
page 18).


 
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Curtis Delaney
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Directly from the rule book.

Terrain
Some spaces on the map have a terrain type as defined by the color-coded
line around the space or spaces. These spaces have effects on gameplay as
listed below. Sometimes a colored line will surround multiple spaces. All
spaces surrounded by a colored line follow the rules for that terrain type.
Examples of the artwork are also listed below. Many map tiles also feature
artwork that does not directly affect gameplay. All spaces on a map tile
that are not surrounded by a specific colored line as listed here are treated as normal spaces regardless of the artwork.

I don't see the language you're citing.

I wonder, what language is your book? Possibly there is variation between versions?

 
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Paul
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The language I'm citing is "players ignore all non-obstacle terrain in those spaces."

"Within 1 space" doesn't mean "1 movement point away from you," it means every space that is adjacent to you, and your own space (which is 0 spaces away from you.) (Excepting obstacle terrain, since you are specifically not allowed to count through that.)

"Within 2 spaces" also includes every space that is adjacent to a space that is one space away from you, "within 3 spaces" also includes any space that is adjacent to one of those, etc.

When an ability tells you you can "move X spaces," you count the movement by counting spaces. Nowhere in that ability are you granted movement points. Providing that you have a path to get there (you're obviously not allowed to move through enemy figures) the distance of your movement is not subject to MP restrictions- that's why a water space counts as 1 space, not 2.

You are still moving through spaces, though, and still suffer damage for entering lava and pits (though you wouldn't have to stop in the pit, since what you're doing is not a move action.) This is in contrast to "remove and place" abilities, where you don't even enter the spaces between your starting and ending spaces.

EDIT: I suppose in more concise terms, what I'm saying is this: When you perform a move action, you receive a number of MP, and that number of MP dictates how far you can move. When you use an ability that instructs you to "move X spaces," how far you can move is instead dictated by how many spaces you move your figure, not how many MP you have to spend to get there.
 
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Curtis Delaney
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Counting Spaces
Some abilities require players to count the spaces from a figure to the
target of the ability. When counting spaces for attacks and abilities,
players ignore any non-obstacle terrain in those spaces (see “Terrain” on
page 18).
The player just needs to verify that his target is in range for
the ability to reach the target. If an ability affects figures within a specified
number of spaces, line of sight is not needed unless specifically noted.
However, when counting spaces for an ability, players cannot count spaces
through a door because the spaces are not considered adjacent. ~(pg.13)

I think I see where you're pulling the info regarding abilities and counting spaces. Is this it?

If so, are you certain this applies to abilities that grant movement? This section relates to counting spaces between attacker and target of abilities. Are you certain this text is meant to be applied to movement granting abilities?

I hope I'm not coming across as overly naggy or critical. It's not my intention at all. Your post is simply the first I've ever seen about the topic of "move X spaces" being interpreted in such a way and has me very curious, because of its implications if deemed accurate.
 
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Paul
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"Ability" has been broadly defined as anything that text allows a player to do. Suffering a fatigue to gain a movement point is an "ability," as is spending a surge during an attack. "Counting spaces for attacks and abilities" is the same as saying "counting spaces any time."

I absolutely agree that abilities worded "move X spaces" (and also, "move up to your speed") are very advantageous. They don't involve MP, so they're unaffected by traps that rob you of a movement point, immobilize, or cause you to "end a move action" (which drops your MP pool to zero.) It's very hard to stop a hero (or monster) with one of these abilities from moving, as you really need to defeat them mid action, or prevent them from performing the action in the first place.

EDIT: Specifically, which consequences are you referring to?
 
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Curtis Delaney
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No one consequence, so to speak. Simply overarching impact on the game as I've played it so far.

Water spaces counting 1 point instead of 2, for example, is a pretty big deal when such an ability is used.

I'm not going to try and say such a change is game breaking or whatever. It's quite possible I'm the only person out there who isn't aware of this interpretation of movement abilities. I've always treated them as adding MP to the player's pool, the same way a move action and fatigue ability does. So moving through water spaces for 1 "mp" is pretty significant from my experience.

I'm always glad to come across threads like this. This game's rules always leave plenty "new" to learn. LOL
 
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Paul
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The terminology concerning MP is a little weird in D2E, because there are certainly multiple types of movement, and only a limited number of those abilities actually involve movement points. I know a number of people who house rule the change you do- because it simplifies the movement system overall. However, it does make the "immobilized" condition much more powerful (RAW, it only stops move actions, and suffering fatigue to gain MP- other types of movement are not limited.)
 
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Curtis Delaney
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Right. I totally understand that.

My big hang up is that Immobilize can still not affect "other types of movement" without those other types of movement being different because they don't award movement points. Does that make sense?

In other words, I always thought ALL movement used movement points.

Immobilize simply prevents two ways of getting those movement points. (based on my interpretation of the system)

I'm just now becoming aware that there are apparently types of movement that don't rely on MP. In fact, another thread http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1313473/types-movement touches on this topic, and I've never known about it.

I feel kinda amazed that I'm just now becoming aware of this because I'm usually pretty thorough when it comes to rules (ask my play group).

Edit: and I try as I might, I cannot find anywhere in the FAQ or rules that distinguishes between these different types of movement.
 
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Mister Easton
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Thanks Paul for your feedback!
 
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Well Paul, seems you are correct. And I have some good news to tell my heroes next time we play. Drat!

From FFG:

Not all skills and abilities that grant movement result in movement points. Anything that instructs you to move a number of spaces or up to your Speed would not grant movement points, instead you count spaces ignoring all non-obstacle terrain. Examples of skills and abilities that do not award movement points include “Skirmish,” “Advance,” and Jain Fairwood’s Heroic Feat.

As non-obstacle terrain is ignored in this instance, the cost of entering a water space is ignored.

Kara Centell-Dunk
Creative Content Developer
kcentelldunk@fantasyflightgames.com
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Paul
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WonderSlug wrote:
Well Paul, seems you are correct. And I have some good news to tell my heroes next time we play. Drat!
I sympathize. A few campaigns ago, our hero party was made up of Jain the Wildlander (heroic feat + nimble with fleet of foot,) myself- Orkell the Skirmisher, with "Carve a Path" and "Back in Action," Quellen the Geomancer (heroic feat 8 stamina and "Ways of stone",) and Trenloe the Knight (Oath of Honor and Advance.) Keeping our party from moving was really not an option for the OL.

On the other hand, remember what this means as an OL- Volucrix reavers can Skirmish over water like it's no one's business, and they can even run through pits at a small cost of 2 damage.
 
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Carsten Summer
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zaltyre wrote:
and they can even run through pits at a small cost of 2 damage.

Now I am confused.
Why do they take damage ? Ignoring all non-obstacle terrain would include pits. Why do you ignore the rules for enter a water spaces but not for enter a pit space ?
 
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Paul
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carsten1977 wrote:
zaltyre wrote:
and they can even run through pits at a small cost of 2 damage.

Now I am confused.
Why do they take damage ? Ignoring all non-obstacle terrain would include pits. Why do you ignore the rules for enter a water spaces but not for enter a pit space ?


I actually asked that question last night to them- but if I could hazard a guess- two reasons:

The water penalty is a cost for moving into the space. "move X" abilities allow an alternative way to get into a water space without the need for any MP. That is, they let you move by an entirely different mechanism, which bypasses the cost. Lava and pits on the other hand, say (paraphrased) "oh, you've entered a pit space? Now these things happen to you." You ignore the terrain for counting the distance- but you're still enterng the space. If you removed and placed your figure instead, you would completely ignore all terrain in between.

Second, the water paragraph says it costs two MP (instead of 1). Since you aren't paying the normal 1, you don't pay the additional. It is the same reason that bloodlust can't be played when you defeat the reanimate. You don't get 1 OL card, so you can't get "more in addition to the normal one."

EDIT: I just got my response from FFG. The water cost only triggers when you move into a water space with movement points. You ignore it when you move X spaces because it's an ability that doesn't require MP, not because of the space counting rule. Lava and pits still trigger damage normally, since damage is unrelated to MP. I applied the "ignore non-obstacle terrain when counting spaces" too broadly.
 
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Curtis Delaney
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Followup e-mail from FFG:

After a follow-up e-mail to a similar question, I’d like to take a moment to clarify my previous response. As the cost of water is 1 extra movement point when using movement points to enter it, moving spaces allows the figure to ignore that cost (since they aren’t expending movement points). Effects that trigger on entering spaces are still resolved normally (like lava and pit).

Kara Centell-Dunk
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Paul
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It's worth stating explicitly- since "move up to your speed" doesn't use MP either, it works just like "move X spaces"- only instead of an ability letting you move a set number of spaces, it lets you move a variable number of spaces equal to your Speed. I'll word this better in the next version of the glossary (I realize reading through what I've got that it sounds more like you're spending movement points without actually spending movement points, which is incorrect.)
 
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Carsten Summer
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nice responses ;-)

But now, back to the pit:
Can you really "run through" (zaltyre) a pit with "move x spaces/speed" ?
RAW there is no "move action" that could end. But you still need an action next to climb out of the pit once you are in a pit.
Otherwise you could argue to suffer 2 fatigue (also no "move action") to go from one side of the pit to the other side.
 
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Paul
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That's the thing- RAW, you can fatigue move into a pit, suffer 2 damage, and fatigue move out. Pits are weird. I AM certain that if a non MP action is in progress, you can continue it to go from one side of a pit to another, and only suffer damage- all the pit effect says is:

1- suffer 2 damage
2- end your move action (which means lose all MP)
3- while in a pit, your only action can be the climb out action.

That phrasing does not prevent non-actions getting you out. Also, actions that have been initiated always get resolved- the OL could play pit trap on Jain during her heroic feat. She will get stunned, but that does not interfere with her moving out the rest of her spaces and attacking. Her NEXT action must be to deal with stun.

In the case of pits, by the time it would be time to climb out of a pit, they are already out of the pit- which is like discarding a stun before you have to use it- the requirement has been removed.

Don't forget that large monsters can (unless they are forced to interrupt completely in a pit) ignore the existence of pits completely- they do not even suffer damage.

Recently, I was playing as OL, and a hero asked me why he couldn't just fatigue out of a pit, or use Elven boots. To my astonishment, RAW, you can! I brought that to FFG in a question, and Nathan said that temporarily (band aid solution) rule that while in a pit, you cannot spend MP- large monsters would ignore this too. He also mentioned he was planning to address that problem in the next errata update- so I'm currently waiting for that. I recommend also ruling the "no MP" in the meantime, and waiting to see what the errata is- the buzz around the forum on FFG is that it will be out soonish.
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Curtis Delaney
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Good to know about your exchange with Nathan as it relates to pits.

So, let me see if I got this right...

Kara's response says "Effects that trigger on entering spaces are still resolved normally (like lava and pit)"

Effects for moving into a pit are:
1.suffer 2 damage
2.end move action

Nathan's response says, basically, apply additional rule while in a pit space, "you're not allowed to spend MP in a pit"

So, "move x spaces" or "move up to your speed" would allow one to move into a pit space and keep moving, but which effects of the space would still apply, according to Kara's response? Just the damage portion?
 
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Paul
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Yes, just the damage portion. The reason you can ignore the special action to climb if you keep going is that by the time you finish your move ability, you're out of a pit, so "if you're in a pit, the only action you can do is climb out" makes no sense anymore, because you're not in a pit. If, however, you "moved 3 spaces" and the last space you moved into was a pit, you would obviously need to spend the climb action to get out- you're not exempt from that just because you didn't move in there with a MP. Does that make sense?

And like I said- the thing about not spending movement points is a "temporary rule change" - it has no actual source in the official rules until it gets published in an errata update, which is why I was hesitant to mention it- didn't want to cause more movement confusion.
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Crystal clear on all points.

Thanks!
 
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David Hladky
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Fortunately there are not many pits in the game. I think I did not have any yet. But unless stated otherwise in the official rules, we will stick with you fall into the pit you end your movement (including move x) and need to get out.

Of couse not abilities, that teleport someone over the pit.

IMO there are so few pits in the game, that if a scenario has them, they should mean something.
 
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Paul
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mrakomor wrote:
Fortunately there are not many pits in the game. I think I did not have any yet. But unless stated otherwise in the official rules, we will stick with you fall into the pit you end your movement (including move x) and need to get out.

Of couse not abilities, that teleport someone over the pit.

IMO there are so few pits in the game, that if a scenario has them, they should mean something.
You can obviously house-rule however your group prefers to play- I'm only trying to make clear how the abilities work "RAW." I definitely agree that abilities worded "move _ spaces" have lots of advantages and seem to be full of loopholes, especially when it comes to traps and terrain.
 
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