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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: and another movement question rss

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Carsten Summer
Germany
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just for a RAW discussion:

M=my hero (one action left, speed:3, stamina:4, fatigue token:3)
h=other hero
X=empty space
______
MhhhX_

Can M move to X ?

Do i count the possible 3+1 movement points as a whole pool and it is possible or does the basic rule and faq apply where figures cannot move into spaces containing figures so that i have to check this after every fatigue step and after the last step of a move action?


 
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Jeff

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You can spend the fatigue tokens for movement whenever you want. so, in this case you would simply start the move action, gain a pool of 3 movement points, then spend a fatigue token to up your movement point pool to 4, and then move to the empty space.

Note that for some OL cards the type of movement (move action or fatigue move) matters, so you should declare which movement points you are using for each square you enter.
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Carsten Summer
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Really ? No other opinions ?

Basic rule: Figures cannot move into spaces containing figures.

I would argue that M can not move with his move action (3 steps) because he would move into a blocked space. So he can not use the additional movement point after that move action.

And
FAQ: declare exactly when he is suffering the fatigue within the move action and which spaces he moves into with those additional movement points.

So M can not use the fatigue move before or within the move action because with this additional movement he would move into a blocked space.

Feel free to proove me wrong.
I could be fine with the "whole pool" ruling, but i'm still missing a real clarification.
 
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Scott Grattan
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carsten1977 wrote:
... Basic rule: Figures cannot move into spaces containing figures. ...


From page 8 of the rules wrote:

Figures cannot move into or through spaces containing figures or
obstacles (see “Terrain” on page 18). These spaces are known as
blocked spaces. However, figures may move diagonally (including
around corners and between two blocked spaces) and through friendly
figures. A hero treats all other heroes as friendly figures, while a monster
treats all other monsters as friendly figures. A figure cannot end its
movement in the same space as another figure.


 
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Carsten Summer
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moving trough friendly figures is not the subject. it's clear that this is possible.

my example would move the hero INTO a blocked space at the end of the move action or while the fatigue step.

 
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Chris Lawson
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carsten1977 wrote:
moving trough friendly figures is not the subject. it's clear that this is possible.

my example would move the hero INTO a blocked space at the end of the move action or while the fatigue step.

Your argument seems to be based on the fact that Heroes are not allowed to move into blocked spaces (that contain friendly figures), yet you are OK with a Hero moving through a blocked space (that contains a friendly figure).

It might be a language issue but by this logic, how is it possible to move through a space if you are not allowed to move into it?

If this was the case, there would be no need for the rules to tell us that...
(i) "However, figures may move diagonally ... and through friendly
figures." If, by your logic, you cannot move into the space to begin with, then how would it be possible to move through that space.

(ii)"A figure cannot end its movement in the same space as another figure." If, by your logic, you cannot move into the space, then how would it be possible to end your turn in that space.

The rules do say "Figures cannot move into or through spaces containing figures or obstacles", but there is an exception to this. The exception is that "However, figures may move ... through friendly figures."

In the context of the rules, this exception would also includes the clause that you may move into spaces that contain friendly figures. While it may not directly state that, there would be little point in telling us that you can move through a friendly figure if you were not allowed to move into that space to being with.

The rules also note that "A figure cannot end its movement in the same space as another figure." Again, there would be no point in telling us this if you were not allowed to move into that space in the first place. The reason the rule is there is to remind us that even if we do move into a space that contains a friendly figure, we are not allowed to end our movement in such a space.

What you are allowed to do is combine two move actions together to move a total of twice your Speed. What this means is that you do not need to "stop" after you take the first move action. You do not move Speed and then Speed again, you move a total of twice your Speed.

The same applies when you suffer fatigue to gain movement points. At the start of your move action, you can declare you are going to suffer fatigue to gain (say) one extra movement point. In fact you can do this at any point during your move action as long as you are in an empty space at the time. If you do add one movement point to those gained by taking a move action, then you can move the number of movement points you now have in total.

It is true that you would not be allowed to take a move action first and then suffer fatigue to move another space if (and only if) the move action ended your turn in an non-empty space. The point here is why would you do that. You can simply state that before starting your move action that you interrupt it and gain one additional movement point by suffering Fatigue. As long as you are in an empty space when you interrupt your move action, then you would be allowed to do this.

Hope that makes sense you to.
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Paul
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xcris is correct. The rules are clear that you cannot end or interrupt your movement in a blocked space. This means if you don't have a way out of the blocked space(when you move into it, since you can't interrupt to do something else,) you can't enter it in the first place. Generally, you can never enter a blocked space with your last movement point (or last space moved) unless you're performing some ability that lets you move those figures out of the way like Steelhorns' heroic feat, for example. In your example, you would need to suffer the fatigue and perform the move action, or perform 2 move actions from your starting space (you would need to somehow have more than 3 movement points) before you entered those hero spaces, since you don't have anywhere to stop along the way to gain more movement.

Look at the OL card "Grease Trap." It causes a hero to move 3 spaces in the direction, but when he can't move a space, he suffers a penalty. Say "T" is the hero targeted by the card, "H" is another hero, "E" is an empty space, and "X" is obstacle terrain. The hero is moving to the right. If the card is played when the hero enters:

TEEX

He will move 2 spaces, and suffer 1 penalty, since he can't move the 3rd space. If it is

THEX

the situation will be exactly the same. He can move through the hero, so he doesn't suffer 3 times, he just suffers for that last space. However, if it's

TEHX

the hero will suffer 2 penalties. Because the target hero would end his movement in the space containing the other hero, he can't move into it in the first place.

 
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David Hladky
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The overlord can not stop the movement with a trap in your example, because the trap cards you refer (such as tripwire) can be triggered if a hero enters an empty space. And because the "other" hero spaces are not empty, the first place, where OL can use the trap card is the X.
 
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Paul
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mrakomor wrote:
The overlord can not stop the movement with a trap in your example, because the trap cards you refer (such as tripwire) can be triggered if a hero enters an empty space. And because the "other" hero spaces are not empty, the first place, where OL can use the trap card is the X.
If you're referring to my example, I'm trying to illustrate that the hero has just entered the leftmost space, from the left.
 
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David Hladky
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Yes, I was refering your example. What I wanted to say was your example is not only legal move but also pretty safe.
 
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Carsten Summer
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carsten1977 wrote:
Feel free to proove me wrong.

Well done, thank you.

I think it was a little language.

So i don't need to "stop" after a fatigue move when i also immediately use my move action.
But i have to "stop" after the move action, when i want to suffer fatigue explicit as my last step.

So i think it's good to know that the only possible way to move in my example is when you suffer the fatigue before you start your move action.

 
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Chris Lawson
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carsten1977 wrote:
So i don't need to "stop" after a fatigue move when i also immediately use my move action.
But i have to "stop" after the move action, when i want to suffer fatigue explicit as my last step.

To be honest, I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean here.

As long as you are in an empty space then you don't have to "stop", you can interrupt the move action.

If you use Fatigue to gain a single movement point and move one space (and didn't use a move action), then you do need to stop after moving the one space. If you use Fatigue to gain two movement points, then you don't have to "stop" after moving one space, you only have to "stop" after you moved the second space. Note: this is assuming you are not moving through water.

It might be just a language issue and the way you worded your comment but I'm not sure you fully understand. Maybe it's just because you are using an abbreviated explanation of what you mean, but this can be a tricky concept to get across so you need to be very specific to try and convey exactly what you mean.
carsten1977 wrote:
So i think it's good to know that the only possible way to move in my example is when you suffer the fatigue before you start your move action.

Again, this might be a language issue but this isn't really correct.

You don't have to suffer the Fatigue before you start your move action. You can if you wish but you don't have to.

You are allowed to start your move action and before you do anything (before you move out of the space you started in), you can interrupt the move action and suffer Fatigue to gain movement points.

While you think it might not make a difference, it might due to Overlord cards such as Pit Trap or Tripwire. Depending on the number of empty spaces you move and where those empty spaces are, it might matter if you use Fatigue to move before you take a move action or if you move and then interrupt the move action to add more movement points.
 
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Paul
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I think the clearest way to state it is this:

Move actions are unique because unlike other actions, you can interrupt them to do other things, including other actions, or suffering fatigue to gain movement points. However, you may only interrupt your move action to do something else if you're in an empty space- a legal space to stop.

The movement points gained by fatigue do not need to be spent immediately, they just add to your pool.

If all spaces in front of you were empty, you could perform a move action (gain 3 MP,) spend 2 of those, suffer a fatigue to gain a MP, and then spend 2 more.

However, in the example you showed, there is no legal space to stop once you start moving- the only place where you can interrupt the move action is your starting space. Therefore, you must interrupt your move action immediately after performing it (before you move anywhere) to gain another MP from fatigue, or suffer the fatigue before beginning the move action. Either way, unless you have 4 MP before you leave that space, you can't move to the other side of those 3 figures.
 
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Carsten Summer
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let's drink a beer - less language problems :-)

thank you for the final clarification !!

 
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Mr. Doctor
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For me, the absolutely simplest way to think about is like this: a move action fills up your movement pool with movement points equal to your speed. Then the movement action is over, and you are now left with 3/4/5 movement points to spend whenever you wish during your turn. You can add more movement points anytime you wish by taking another move action or using fatigue to gain one movement point for each fatigue you spend. When you actually move you should however declare, for each space, if you use a "move action" movement point or a fatigue movement point, as this might affect if the OL can play specific cards on you (as has already been noted).

Hope that clarifies it! =)
 
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Scott Lewis
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Henrik - the only problem with that viewpoint is for things like Tripwire, which end your "move action". If you have the move action just simply add movement points to your pool and then end, then tripwire becomes useless - you can say "my move action is already done, i'm just spending movement points."

Of course, if you use that way of looking at it, you could just interpret Tripwire to mean that you lose any movement points given to you by the most recent move action. Fatigue points would still apply.
 
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Paul
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sigmazero13 wrote:
you could just interpret Tripwire to mean that you lose any movement points given to you by the most recent move action. Fatigue points would still apply.
FFG has clarified that if a figure is instructed to "end a move action" it loses all of its movement points, regardless of where they came from- same when they get immobilized.
 
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