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Subject: Your Eater defence of choice rss

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Soda Popinski
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It's quite obvious that nowadays every corp deck has to deal with the insanely annoying eater+keyhole+run events deck.

What's your defence against it and why?
 
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Peter Hopkins
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I've been doing a little experimenting with Hostile Infrastructure in my NBN deck. Throw it into a remote under something like a Quandry or just naked.

The net damage triggers off a Keyhole trash, the five rez cost is in perfect range to rez in response to a siphon (and unlike other siphon runs, they can't access instead), and it's another good target for Licence Acquisition if you've already got your SanSan rezzed.

And imagine two rezzed... 2 net damage per Keyhole! Even a chance to flatline an unwary runner if they start a Keyhole run with a single card in hand.

Early days at the moment, but it's a card that fits into my deck already and may give the runner a little surprise. Definitely going to give it some table time.
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Arvils Feldmanis
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Riga
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http://netrunnerdb.com/en/card/04033



Swordsman
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Yoshi
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I put 2 Wraparounds and 1 Swordsman into my ETF-deck for our SC, only faced one MaxX/Eater but they were all very good. Swordsman landed to trash their Eater on Keyhole-run. My opponent "forgot" that Knight is also an AI and took a couple of turns to set up a new run on RnD and moving his last Knight to Swordsman and then SOT Forked laugh mistakes were made.

Eve campaign was also great, perfect to blank their Siphon (by rezzing it).

Depending on deck though, I will put Crisium into Weyland and like mentined, assets/upgrades that drain credits to negate Siphon.

I had a lot of problems with Eater/Keyhole in the very beginning, but we will all learn to play around them, just like we learned to play around Siphons
 
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Soda Popinski
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Whats your thought on will o the wisp as a replacement for crisium grid?

Against a lot of runners crisium doesn´t seem worth it but uninstalling programs with the wisp is always good.. I guess trashcost 1 against 5 for crisium is pretty major.
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Lothar Neu
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Sarstedt
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Crisium Grid is nearly always worth using:

Legwork
Maker's Eye
John Masanori
Datasucker / Medium (just the counters)
Emergency Shutdown
Account Siphon
Security Testing
Indexing

You should always find at least one card you can shutdown with Crisium.

On first sight it seems kind of useless, but there is always some card you can disable.
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Stephen Parkes
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soda_popinski wrote:
Whats your thought on will o the wisp as a replacement for crisium grid?

Against a lot of runners crisium doesn´t seem worth it but uninstalling programs with the wisp is always good.. I guess trashcost 1 against 5 for crisium is pretty major.
That's actually quite a good idea, especially if struggling for influence. If you rez it at the end of a keyhole run and bounce eater, you'll stop any immediate cutlery bollocks too, which is the new bane of my life.

Downsides
- Higher rez cost
- Cheaper trash cost (access from R&D, ouch)
- Is a one-shot
- If used in a keyhole run, keyholing would still happen

Upsides
- No influence spend
- Tempo hit as a result of eater trashing
- Bottom of the stack for Anarchs is a bad place for cards to end up
 
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Eric Taylor
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Embery wrote:

Most Eater decks will be running Mimics and/or Femmes to get around Swordsman, so I'm not convinced it's a great solution. Caprice Nisei and Crisium Grid are the better solutions overall, but the space ice and Wraparound are good ice.

Once Turing comes out, it will further slow down Eater-based decks.
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wanderingmystic
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soda_popinski wrote:
Whats your thought on will o the wisp as a replacement for crisium grid?

Against a lot of runners crisium doesn´t seem worth it but uninstalling programs with the wisp is always good.. I guess trashcost 1 against 5 for crisium is pretty major.

Crisium grid can also be used as bait in your scoring remote if nothing else. Force the runner to blow credits/cards thinking it may be an agenda. Blue Sun can double benefit from this, as if the runner doesn't take the bait, they can rez and pick it up for no net loss at the start of a turn and try again (or install the real agenda, or an advancable trap like shattered remains).

Currently I'm running Weyland, so I have 2 crisiums and one swordsman splashed for anti-eater defence. Haven't played too many of the new anarchs yet, so have yet to see how effective it is, but I've been drawing my crisiums plenty against everyone else, so I imagine 2 of in a deck is plenty.

That Hostile Infrastructure idea out of Jinteki sounds brilliant! I think I'm going to give that a try in a backup fun deck I've made.
 
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Peter Hopkins
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wanderingmystic wrote:
That Hostile Infrastructure idea out of Jinteki sounds brilliant! I think I'm going to give that a try in a backup fun deck I've made.

It's Hostile Infrastructure out of NBN I have a deck (based on the Space Train deck posted by gumOnShoe a while ago) that runs 16 assets and 3 upgrades. Pretty much the best way to beat it is to start trashing early and often, as those DBS, Turtlebacks, Marked Accounts and PADs make a late game win much harder. Giving 1 net damage forces an extra click for each trash, with the chance I'll hit something they want to keep.

Plus there is a huge amount of runners running ice trashing cards...

Incidentally, the prevalence of Crisium Grid has led me to pop Feint into my Criminal deck, drew it last night and get a double inside job! Boom.
 
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Soda Popinski
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unitled wrote:
[q="wanderingmystic"]

Incidentally, the prevalence of Crisium Grid has led me to pop Feint into my Criminal deck, drew it last night and get a double inside job! Boom.

Haha I never thought of the interaction between feint and crisium..
 
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Ken Dilloo
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The Ginger Ninja
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Maybe I am being daft here (shakesnods head), and I haven't had me coffee yet, but how does Feint counter Chism Grid? If I Feint there, I can't access, so I can't trash Chism, right? I don't see how feint is different than Eater, except it might save some cash.

FWIW, I have been playing an Eater deck that uses 3x Femme with Inject and Retrieval Runs to try to deal with any problem ICE (Swordsman...etc). Chism Grid and Will of the Wisp have been my biggest problems. Had a fun, long game where my last 3 cards, in my deck, were my 3x Eaters, because of a Wispped RnD. Good Times.
 
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Erik Twice
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Like with any other breaker, my defense is to tax the hell out of it. They are still Anarchs, a bunch of Bioroids makes them cry
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Stephen G.
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Feint: If successful, you cannot access any cards.

Crisium: Successful runs against this server are not considered to be successful or unsuccessful for the purposes of card abilities.

In short, you can access cards.
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Erik Twice
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bigloo33 wrote:
Maybe I am being daft here (shakes head), and I haven't had me coffee yet, but how does Feint counter Chism Grid? If I Feint there, I can't access, so I can't trash Chism, right? I don't see how feint is different than Eater, except it might save some cash.
Feint doesn't allow you to access cards IF the run is successful.

Crisium Grid makes the run not-successful, so you can access cards like you normally would
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Ken Dilloo
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The Ginger Ninja
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Ah, like a double negative. Wow, that is some cleaver stuff, right there. OK, off to inject some caffeine!
 
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Peter Hopkins
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When Crisium Grid first came out everyone kind of shrugged their shoulders; it only seemed to interest people in figuring out its interaction with a load of other cards (Security Testing, Tennin, Ash, Emergency Shutdown, Sneakdoor Beta...). One of the ones that came up was Feint; I was running Feint around then but no-one else was playing Crisium. Kept the interaction in the back of my mind

It's good as a one-two with Account Siphon, Feint in, saving money on the run, then access a card and trash the grid. Then follow it up with the Siphon they thought they were safe from to replenish the money you spent on the trash.

(What the hell is going on thematically, though, I have no idea...)
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Olivier De Clercq
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Crisium cancels the "can't access when succesful" text on Feint, so that means you actually can get in HQ. Cool trick.

ninjaninjaninja
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Beyer
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I did a test deck with eater and keyhole. I have no idea how anarchs pay for repeated uses of eater. Compared to the regular breaker suite it's crazy expensive.

How to defend against eater? Stack some ice on r&d.
 
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Andrew Lieffring
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Stunke wrote:
I did a test deck with eater and keyhole. I have no idea how anarchs pay for repeated uses of eater. Compared to the regular breaker suite it's crazy expensive.

How to defend against eater? Stack some ice on r&d.

Eater costs two more up front, but after that it's exactly as efficient as Corroder, except it works on all Ice (with one notable exception). Corroder is about as efficient as icebreakers get.
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Beyer
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Yog? Free to break.
Mimic? 1 to break.
I find repeated use of corroder expensive. The anarch money machine doesn't run as well as criminal or shaper. Not in my experience anyway. That's why mimic and Yog are so prevalent. Rather than pay to pump you collect data sucker tokens from running, which you are supposed to be doing anyway.

It makes a big difference for me.
 
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Ken Dilloo
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The Ginger Ninja
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Beyer, getting around a Lotus Field is handy.

I haven't really found Eater overly expensive, relatively speaking. It is a whole new animal though.
 
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Allan Clements
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Turns out Esseb did touch the flag. Don't tell him I said so though.
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Architect + Patch + Sub-boost on r&d
 
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James D.
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Snipafist wrote:
Embery wrote:

Most Eater decks will be running Mimics and/or Femmes to get around Swordsman, so I'm not convinced it's a great solution. Caprice Nisei and Crisium Grid are the better solutions overall, but the space ice and Wraparound are good ice.

Once Turing comes out, it will further slow down Eater-based decks.

I point and laugh at Swordsman. That's what the Mimic and Forked are for.

Even on the off chance you do trash an Eater, you need to remember that MaxX decks live and die on recursion, so your "devastating blow" is only a temporary setback at best. Also, any good MaxX player will be holding onto an extra copy of it or some form of recursion, and will be actively searching for the Swordsman.

Snipafist is correct - Caprice and Crisium Grid are better anti-Eater tech. Even the Crisium is only going to work for so long, as most decks have a way to get to it that doesn't rely on AI breakers, such as Quest Completed. Heck, Wraparound is more devastating against Eater than Swordsman is.

Swordsman is not good and never will be.
 
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Ulrik Bøe
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The existence of Swordsman does a lot against Eater (otherwise it's pretty much untrashable), but it mostly affects deckbuilding. The threat of it means that you have to include Mimic or Femme in an Eater rig, but because good builds already do, Swordsman's job is done before you start the game. Might as well leave it at home.
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